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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Not just oligopoly and driving out small business, but creating an entire mindset that you are worthless or inadequate if you don't conform to shopping at certain stores or owning particular expensive items.
    What? No. I don't agree with this at all. The vast majority of the population wouldn't feel worthless or inadequet if the lack certain brands. The few that do, quite frankly, are pathetic individuals if they're putting their self worth on a brand. I do not see this around me, in the media, or anywhere for that matter. There are some people like this, but it's really really rare, and mostly limited to teenagers. That would be the epitome of shallow. What people do do, is seek out certain brands because of either their popularity, reputation, or both. It doesn't work in the reverse case that you are suggesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It also creates the problem of people being psychologically attached to things that might harm them in the long run.
    Such as? The only items I could think of that might (and in some cases can) cause psychological problems are personal computers, and smartphones. There is recent research that I've come across that suggests links to diminished memory and attention span, but nothing too much more severe. In the grand scheme of things, that's really not that bad, and this is preliminary research. These items have bettered the world in FAR more ways than they have detracted. Further, I would hesitate to call these part of consumerism unless we talk about brand, which wouldn't effect the issues I presented. Even then, the only way we'd ever find out if there is a problem with these, is unless they were used en masse for years to see what emerges. You couldn't study it in a vacuum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Is anyone harmed because I used to watch The Facts of Life when I was five and saw Nestle commercials? ? Seemingly no. Until you realize I implicitly trusted Nestle because I saw them as a trusted brand before I formed critical thinking skills and so did thousands of other children, and we all bought or continue to buy Nestle, and then look at the damage they've caused GLOBALLY as a corporation.
    This is the nature of modern life. How do you suggest things be done that would be as productive as how things are done now. Yeah, kids are impressionable, but as they grow older, the vast majority of them are able to think critically about things. Parents by and large don't force kids to conform to consumer products. We see that happen with more substantiating issues like Religion, so they have parental influence which could hinder critical thinking in some. Even then, there are quite a number of children who become free thinking enough to form their own opinions, and see past the thoughtless bais presented (and in some ways indoctrinated) in them. Comertial influence is FAR weaker in comparison to this. So in reality, it is a non issue. The vast majority will be able to see things for what they are when they grow up.

    I'm not defending Nestle, I am not a fan of their business practices, but that's independent of the point I am making.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    So then you have a neuroticism form about innocent childhood memories, and feel anxious when you should feel relaxed because you were just a pawn.

    And that's just Nestle.

    It's so complex, and part of the damage is the self loathing being told horrible things about your own culture.

    So there are the people who say fuck it I will shop at Wal Mart anyway, and then there's all that, with them driving out rural business, as well questionable business practices.

    It's like being in an abusive relationship. You can't live with it and can't live without it.

    Especially since people who do live without it, or were forced to as children, will probably on some level always feel like outsiders in their own country, which in young adults could affect social skills and dating.

    I don't relate to this, like, at all? I'd venture to guess most people I know would agree too. I never feel like I was used as a pawn, or that I was manipulated unfairly. Even if I was, it wouldn't bother me in this context. I'd become aware of it, understand what psychology tricks were used for it, see if it is truly bad or not, and if it is then become aware of how to stop it. Simple, easy, done.

    Driving out small businesses is an issue, yes I agree. It's something that needs to be dealt with as over time corporations are becoming larger and fewer which hurts consumers. Nevertheless, II think you're taking all of this way way too seriously and focusing on something that isn't as big of an issue as it might seem, and is ultimately a distraction from the actual issue large corporations can present (also I should note, most of them aren't bad. These discussions often make it to sound like all are inheriently bad). Yeah, I agree there are a number of corporations that have shady business practices and unethical motatives, and they should be dealt with accordingly, but that is the thing to focus on. If you're passionate about stopping nestle, then put effort into going against them. I doubt it will have much an effect, but it's better than nothing I suppose.

    And you're right, this is how the modern world is, we can't live without consumerism. It's the bloodforce of the world economy, and to remove it would destroy the modern world and send it back to the dark ages. As such, the best thing to is make peace with it, and modify it/manage the best that we can.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We miss what is right under our noses.

    We moved from the traditional tribe to the literate individual, and now we are moving to the electronic tribe.

    Every time we sign on, we are moving deeper into the electronic tribe of Typology Central.

    Without our noticing, Typology Central is changing our sense ratios, our relationships, and our orientation, to fit us for the electric tribe.

    And this major operation on our psyche is being done without any commercialism whatsoever.

    As a fledgeling etribe we are changing our archetype voluntarily, instinctively, intuitively, without us even being consciously aware.

    This is the secret life of Typology Central.

    This is what keeps drawing us back again and again.
    Mole I agree but yet only half way because the electronic tribe still needs to eat and wear clothes. I think hipster culture is largely a changing archetypes subculture that was communicated largely through the Internet, which in turn promotes things like ethical companies and fair trade and thrift shopping, yet fetishizes electronic waste.via propagation of the sales of the latest iPhone. And don't forget about Facebook and Google being a big slice of the e-tribal experience.

    The Internet gives me hope but it's not a magic solution.

    I know on the electronic plane we are all citizens of the earth and maybe that's what will save mankind.


    No matter how much we change those formative cultural markers are still there. We can't escape ourselves. That is how we carry the commercials with us even after the apocalypse, to use a hyperbolic term.

    It's so unconscious,quite possibly much of what we believe about ourselves was announced to us before the movie of the week.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    What? No. I don't agree with this at all. The vast majority of the population wouldn't feel worthless or inadequet if the lack certain brands. The few that do, quite frankly, are pathetic individuals if they're putting their self worth on a brand. I do not see this around me, in the media, or anywhere for that matter. There are some people like this, but it's really really rare, and mostly limited to teenagers. That would be the epitome of shallow. What people do do, is seek out certain brands because of either their popularity, reputation, or both. It doesn't work in the reverse case that you are suggesting.




    Such as? The only items I could think of that might (and in some cases can) cause psychological problems are personal computers, and smartphones. There is recent research that I've come across that suggests links to diminished memory and attention span, but nothing too much more severe. In the grand scheme of things, that's really not that bad, and this is preliminary research. These items have bettered the world in FAR more ways than they have detracted. Further, I would hesitate to call these part of consumerism unless we talk about brand, which wouldn't effect the issues I presented. Even then, the only way we'd ever find out if there is a problem with these, is unless they were used en masse for years to see what emerges. You couldn't study it in a vacuum.




    This is the nature of modern life. How do you suggest things be done that would be as productive as how things are done now. Yeah, kids are impressionable, but as they grow older, the vast majority of them are able to think critically about things. Parents by and large don't force kids to conform to consumer products. We see that happen with more substantiating issues like Religion, so they have parental influence which could hinder critical thinking in some. Even then, there are quite a number of children who become free thinking enough to form their own opinions, and see past the thoughtless bais presented (and in some ways indoctrinated) in them. Comertial influence is FAR weaker in comparison to this. So in reality, it is a non issue. The vast majority will be able to see things for what they are when they grow up.

    I'm not defending Nestle, I am not a fan of their business practices, but that's independent of the point I am making.





    I don't relate to this, like, at all? I'd venture to guess most people I know would agree too. I never feel like I was used as a pawn, or that I was manipulated unfairly. Even if I was, it wouldn't bother me in this context. I'd become aware of it, understand what psychology tricks were used for it, see if it is truly bad or not, and if it is then become aware of how to stop it. Simple, easy, done.

    Driving out small businesses is an issue, yes I agree. It's something that needs to be dealt with as over time corporations are becoming larger and fewer which hurts consumers. Nevertheless, II think you're taking all of this way way too seriously and focusing on something that isn't as big of an issue as it might seem, and is ultimately a distraction from the actual issue large corporations can present (also I should note, most of them aren't bad. These discussions often make it to sound like all are inheriently bad). Yeah, I agree there are a number of corporations that have shady business practices and unethical motatives, and they should be dealt with accordingly, but that is the thing to focus on. If you're passionate about stopping nestle, then put effort into going against them. I doubt it will have much an effect, but it's better than nothing I suppose.

    And you're right, this is how the modern world is, we can't live without consumerism. It's the bloodforce of the world economy, and to remove it would destroy the modern world and send it back to the dark ages. As such, the best thing to is make peace with it, and modify it/manage the best that we can.
    You are so right. Subconscious mind control is not a big deal, especially since its such a part of your life you barely notice it, like having eyebrows.

  4. #14
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You are so right. Subconscious mind control is not a big deal, especially since its such a part of your life you barely notice it, like having eyebrows.
    So are you claiming that because I don't agree with you, I am brain washed and this have invalid opinions and points?
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Mole I agree but yet only half way because the electronic tribe still needs to eat and wear clothes. I think hipster culture is largely a changing archetypes subculture that was communicated largely through the Internet, which in turn promotes things like ethical companies and fair trade and thrift shopping, yet fetishizes electronic waste.via propagation of the sales of the latest iPhone. And don't forget about Facebook and Google being a big slice of the e-tribal experience.

    The Internet gives me hope but it's not a magic solution.

    I know on the electronic plane we are all citizens of the earth and maybe that's what will save mankind.


    No matter how much we change those formative cultural markers are still there. We can't escape ourselves. That is how we carry the commercials with us even after the apocalypse, to use a hyperbolic term.

    It's so unconscious,quite possibly much of what we believe about ourselves was announced to us before the movie of the week.
    Quite so, I would add that as the manuscript became the content of the book, and as the theatre became the content of the movies, so the cultural archetype is now the content of Typology Central.

    Just look: what are we doing? We are discussing the cultural archetype on Typology Central.

    So the cultural archetype becomes visible while Typology Central remains invisible.

    The principle is that all environments are invisible, and so Typology Central is our invisible environment.

    And perhaps our most important task is to wake from the content of Typology Central and make our invisible environment, visible.

    Who know what we might see?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    So are you claiming that because I don't agree with you, I am brain washed and this have invalid opinions and points?
    Everyone is brainwashed by advertising. Mind control is the gentlest but most effective force. Why do Americans have such great teeth? Ask Colgate. Sure it has its perks, which is why anyone agreed to let it slowly take over in the first place.

    But yes I kind of lost patience with you that you seem to think millions of children being trained to participate in mass wealth accumulation for harmful corporate entities, that stays with you for your entire life until someone informs you, is not a big deal.

    Nope, not a big deal if Nestle corp merged with or acquired eighty other companies and destroyed water supplies, as long as you know now, stopped, fixed, right? Hardly. The twenty years you were blissfully unaware was plenty of time to wreak havoc, and so many others still blindly consume, keeping the same people in power economically.

  7. #17
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Everyone is brainwashed by advertising. Mind control is the gentlest but most effective force. Why do Americans have such great teeth? Ask Colgate. Sure it has its perks, which is why anyone agreed to let it slowly take over in the first place.

    But yes I kind of lost patience with you that you seem to think millions of children being trained to participate in mass wealth accumulation for harmful corporate entities, that stays with you for your entire life until someone informs you, is not a big deal.

    Nope, not a big deal if Nestle corp merged with or acquired eighty other companies and destroyed water supplies, as long as you know now, stopped, fixed, right? Hardly. The twenty years you were blissfully unaware was plenty of time to wreak havoc, and so many others still blindly consume, keeping the same people in power economically.
    Exactly, everyone is effected by this, and there is no alternative. But it isn't "brainwashing", and it's most certainly not mindcontrol. That doesn't exist. The reason have great teeth, is not just because of colgate. It's because it's well established, scientifically, that brushing your teeth is needed for good dental health. Colgate meerly took advangate of that, and it's a good thing they did.

    Yes, it's clear you did, but you still didn't address the points that I made. And I already said, I don't see children as being mindlessly trained to particpate in harmful corporations. I do not see it as a big deal because it gets resolved. Children are really impressionable, to everything. You want them to be pure, keep em in a bubble. This is just the typical "think of the children argument!" which is nothing more than emotional pleading. You either have advertisement, or you don't. With how the world works, it needs to be in place. It sucks, but it's how it is, and it really isn't a problem. I already explained how it isn't.

    Again, what alternative is there? This is how the world is, you might not like it, but that doesn't make that any different. There is little we can do to change it, because it's needed. Yes, it sucks, and as I said I agree with you that Nestle is not a good company. But solving the problem if them wouldn't be done by just ending consumerism. The medicine would be worse than the disease in that case anyway. What your suggesting we uproot can't be done. As I already said, what can be done is going after the companies themselves. That's viable.
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  8. #18
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post

    It's like being in an abusive relationship. You can't live with it and can't live without it.

    Especially since people who do live without it, or were forced to as children, will probably on some level always feel like outsiders in their own country, which in young adults could affect social skills and dating.
    This subject sums up why I have pretty much not related to many other people in my life.

    One of the reasons why I don't relate to them, is cause I don't have strong sentimental attachment to things. Including childhood memories. Especially things like brand names. I don't relate much to Si in general. Details of my past do not stay with me. The only thing that does stay with me is the essence of the experience.

    That being said, I woke up about this subject at quite a young age. And I most definitely didn't fit in in school, simply because I didn't care about wearing the newest thing or what not.

    It is a little disheartening when one realizes that all the literal and metaphorical shit we've been fed and trusted, since childhood, has never had meaning. I have never felt any resemblance of a sense of community because of this. And that's because i refuse to participate in a community which bases its significance on what they've been told to. It's a catch 22. You want to be accepted for who you are and feel a sense of belonging, but the ways in which some(probably even most) people get accepted is by not being who they are.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    It's a catch 22. You want to be accepted for who you are and feel a sense of belonging, but the ways in which some(probably even most) people get accepted is by not being who they are.
    Yes, it is an impasse.

    Yet impasses are important because it means we have the possibility of discovering something new.

    And we are all afraid of what we don't know.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    But yes I kind of lost patience with you that you seem to think millions of children being trained to participate in mass wealth accumulation for harmful corporate entities, that stays with you for your entire life until someone informs you, is not a big deal.
    You and Hard are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. Hard is correct in saying critical thinking can overcome much of commercial influence, but I think he greatly overestimates the average person's ability (or perhaps inclination) to think critically.

    Still commercialism is inevitable, and it's not even that bad a thing. For the most part, these companies are selling you things you want, although advertising by intent tries to make you want them more (by doing things like associating status with a brand etc.). However, as long as you can think critically enough to recognize a corporation is trying to exploit you to maximize its' profit, you should be able to defend yourself easy enough. And some people dearly want status, so they pay for it (so for example, instead of wearing a $30 pair of perfectly functional sneakers, they pay > $100 for the most trendy brand of the season).

    But the person making the choice needs to accept some responsibility. They can't just claim they have been "brainwashed" by advertising. They probably have been influenced, but if they aren't conscious of that influence, I think there has been some willful blindness on their part.

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