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  1. #71
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Thanks for this. The bolded explains SO MUCH about the past few pages of this thread: why you appeared to me to be mixing up 8 and Te traits, and why a trio of non-8 TJs started trying to correct you.

    Whenever people ask me what the elements are of ESTJ type descriptions that I DON'T relate to, I cite quotes like that. I'm not domineering, I don't have a need to always be the boss. Isolated from the Enneagram, ESTJs are supposed to be equally gifted at being bosses and being employees -- hence the surprisingly accurate "middle manager" stereotype. Which makes the insertion of tidbits like the "domineering" comment a bit contradictory.

    Maybe it's because I'm not an 8. Maybe it's because I am hyper-aware of the mixing of Enneagram and MBTI traits in discussion. (Has been problematic in the past when, for example, asking for ENFP 2 advice and getting ENFP 7 advice.) Either way, that's why I stepped in -- hard to have a discussion about your own type when one of the "givens" doesn't apply to you (and when you don't consider yourself to be an "exception to a general rule" in that regard).
    It’s an interesting question- whether, just because Te correlates strongly with e8, it’s ‘fair’ to claim the downsides of e8 are gripes about Te. People do this a lot with e2 and Fe. I always want to point out that it isn’t Fe that pushes to ‘help’ where it isn’t asked for and then expects help in return. Because there’s a reason e2 correlates strongly with Fe dominance- yet it isn’t some inherent characteristic of Fe. As an e5 Fe aux, I actually really resent obligations being given to me without my clear consent and I don’t do it to others.

    So yeah, where the correlation is strong (between mbti and etype)- I don’t know, I guess it’s reasonable to make generalizations but there’s still something about it that lacks accuracy. [And honestly? The reaction in this thread has actually been validating for me because I'm usually the one on the other side of this. It makes me feel a bit more reasonable.]

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In a way, I totally understand it. As Z-Buck said, going along with the demand would only lose me an hour or two, and as ignorant as some impressions might be, if EVERYONE is getting the same impression, it becomes "truth" and is difficult to falsify.
    Yeah, I'm always keenly aware of the personality types- not any specific system, but I've always been aware of different temperaments- around me and I anticipate reactions before they happen. It's not consciously done, it's just something that's 'obvious' to me. And in some environments I have found that it can actually eat up an enormous amount of my cognitive 'bandwidth', constantly formulating solutions to extinguish problems before they happen- and it's the kind of thing that's invisible to most people. Such places are toxic to me because it's exhausting and the benefits get taken for granted anyway.

    But yeah, at the bolded- I don't even bother explaining the absurdity to people I'm pretty sure won't begin to understand it (which is to say, most people), but it truly does ultimately cut down the work load.

    eta: My point in mentioning the Si is that I can imagine feeling especially inclined to do this in an environment where there are a lot of Si dom/aux working- because if they take vague note of it, it's very hard to undo, as you said. But in an environment of Pe dom/aux....if they noticed at all, it'd be gone five minutes later (i.e. not hard to undo that impression). And anyway, it seems like NFJ direction to me- that's why I asked about the type.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #72
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    Actually, I think Z-Buck helped address that, above. It isn't a focus on "title" but on social dynamics, and INFJs will tend to go along with "ridiculous" social dynamics for a time, if only to avoid expending the energy to tell everyone how ridiculous they're being.
    So you've revised your initial position on that after Z-buck's post?

    And there's something in your example that doesn't ring true for me and I have this feeling that you've been too eager to associate it with INFJs...

    Yeah, I may navigate/surf on social dynamics so as not create disharmony and optimize collective gains but I do not want to engage in enabling behaviour towards the collective either...

    I don't know...there's something off...

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think Ti, even though tertiary, does for me what you described as Te does for you...Ni-dom jumps to a conclusion which feels right (or wrong) but doesn't readily know why...I need to think on it really hard and gather some external data (from the net) so as to bring the Ni conclusion to the forefront (making it visible to the conscious self as well as communicable to the external world)...This is a delayed process...(perhaps relatively faster for you, which may make you more articulate about it)

    This came up in a dialogue with a friend...Ni conclusions feels likethis to me...I am at point A (the question/problem) initially and Ni makes a (relatively quick) conclusion and jumps to point B (conclusion) which feels right...But I do not know why B feels right at that moment so cannot explain either to myself or others why it feels right...So Ti starts backtracking the solution route all the way to A, after which I can tell myself and others why it feels right (or wrong)...So Ni acts like teleporting all the way from A to B whereas Ti acts like going that path on foot back from B to A...

    I've always imagined it was Ti-tert responsible for this delayed process (to flesh out, backtrack the route)...And I've associated it with cause and effect style reasoning...And I really need to force myself to bring my conclusion from the depths of Ni domain, perhaps that's why it may be consuming more energy...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    That totally makes sense. Ti is the balance for Fe. As you say, it's the long way around. Ti (and Fi) are fairly slow in execution, even among Ti/Fi doms.
    I am with Werebudgie on this one...Ni-Fe conclusions are collective oriented and may sometimes compel me to abandon my own distress/needs etc. in favor of others/collective...which may become detrimental to my "self" cause I may end up using myself as the primary agent to catalyze the positive change that Ni-Fe envisioned for the collective system...If other people do not commit themselves to the new collective system, the burden of its upkeep falls on my shoulders and I get stubborn and do not want to abandon that ideal...Some people may even notice and try to abuse this reflex in me...

    So I've started noticing this habit of mine and other people and started producing alternative narratives to counter this reflex in me without infuriating my supergo (and thus not feeling bad about myself)...And I've associated Ti-tert with the thing that produces these counter narratives...

    So Ti-tert works in tandem with Ni to make Ni conclusions more tangible, and works against Fe-aux to enable me to cater more to myself than the collective sometimes...(cut myself some slack)...and I believe it has an essential role for INFJs' sense of self and well-being...

    Fi-tert in INTJs perhaps adds some personal coloring/preference/signature to Ni-Te products that doesn't significantly affect the end result...some kind of fingerprint perhaps...Is this related to why people code viruses and similar things? To create something unique with their imprint in it? They identify themselves with their product/construct?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    What's the personal motivation for INTJs that drives them to attain correct conclusions? Being correct makes you think/feel?
    I would connect this more to Enneagram type than MBTI type (as you ask for "motivation"). Type 1 just wants to be right, period. Type 5 wants to master a particular topic. Type 8 want to be right in order to get his way. As a type 9, I want to be right because things work way more smoothly if I'm right the first time, cf. the image I posted a while back, saying, "Of course I don't look busy. I did it right the first time."
    Yeah that's the what of it...why does type 1 wants to be right, why does type 9 wants to be right? What do you experience if things do not go smoothly? The why of it should be tied to the ego, sense of self or something primal...
    Last edited by yeghor; 02-14-2014 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Blue added

  3. #73
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Problem is, it's hard for me personally to see a comment like "I perceived this as being (insert incorrect assumption here)" and NOT take it as "I had an incorrect assumption that I still believe and thus needs to be corrected -- that incorrect assumption was frustrating me and I would feel much better with some resolution and closure". Not saying that Coriolis or Uumlau were coming from this position (they probably weren't), and not trying to turn this into a "why do Fe users act like this to me" thread.
    To me, there is no substitute for substance and results. Still, if someone has a perception problem with me or something I am doing, I am more than willing to consider this. I will ask them to describe what specifically about my actions is creating this incorrect impression, and then evaluate whether it makes sense to adjust. This only works, however, if they are able and willing to give me this kind of feedback. Otherwise, I do tend to dismiss their comments as pointless complaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This reminds me of a real work situation, in an Fe-ish work environment. This was back in the old days, and the company was using Novell Netware. It had crashed, and so I went into the computer room and started the process to restore from backup. I then went back to my office to work on other projects.
    Good grief. I think I would have made a big sign for the door of the computer room reading "Restore from backup is in progress; will be completed by HH:MM."

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It’s that *sometimes* it seems clear there’s some irrational core fueling the belief in the ‘facts’: it may very well look like “my fact ‘beats’ your fact” to the person doing it, but on the outside it looks more like “I NEED my facts to ‘beat’ your facts to feel <whatever, I’m not going to presume to know, outside of thinking it looks like an unconscious need>”.
    There is an irrational core fueling belief in the facts: namely, one of our core values. We value demonstrable facts more than other kinds of information. This subjective valuation, however, will also cause us to come to value someone else's facts over our own if we are shown that they are more accurate, or more complete, or somehow preferable according to the (mostly) objective standards we value (more subjective considerations). At least for an E5, it's not so much that we need our facts to beat yours, we need to figure out whose facts are better and more reliable. If we have done our homework in aquiring our own, and they also fit in with our Ni perceptions, you will have to make a very good case for us to abandon them in favor of yours. We will, though, if you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    That^ is what I’m talking about with my spiel about how sometimes it really seems like TJs experience (just like everyone else) the irrational human ‘state of being’ of wanting to ‘be right’ (not for the sake of learning, but from the unconscious need to ‘be right’). Am I saying I think this is a noticeable problem for every single TJ? Not by a long shot. I’m simply saying I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this particular kind of human frailty exist in TJs.
    I won't disagree that we have a unconscious desire to be right. We are more likely to satisfy that, however, by correcting a wrong position than by clinging to it once its error has been demonstrated (demonstrated, not claimed without substantiation).

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Now granted, this is undoubtably more menacing to me because I’m not Te (and have an insanely hard time empathizing with it, so it doesn’t just roll off my back when I encounter it). But I’m not just projecting some Fe ‘power’ thing (whatever that is). There is a thing that happens with Te and wanting power/authority for the sake of having power/authority- above and beyond simply ‘learning’.
    This does sound more E8. For E5, the power is power to affect outcomes, to implement our ideas in the world, rather than power over others. If you see us trying to achieve that, it is usually just a means to an end, not a goal in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Ti-tert in INFJs outlines/highlights the solution route/path making it more visible to INFJs' conscious self...whereas Fi-tert in INTJs marks the solutions with INTJs' own signature/twist/preferences/touch making it personalized somehow?
    I would say tert Fi in INTJ keeps goals and solutions consistent with our values and priorities, and motivates us with the feeling that what we want to accomplish is worthwhile and good.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Is there a style of delivery that INTJs find hard to swallow when their conclusions are challenged?
    I have no patience with anything involving sugar-coating, beating around the bush, etc. Also challenges that contain no supporting justification or evidence. If you disagree with me, I prefer to hear: "I think you are wrong because of x, y, and z." I may disagree with your reasoning and tell you so, which precipitates a (hopefully) constructive and respectful discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What's the personal motivation for INTJs that drives them to attain correct conclusions? Being correct makes you think/feel?
    For me, it is being able to accomplish things. If I make plans based on faulty conclusions, I cannot expect them to work. In more casual discussions/debates, I want to get to a correct conclusion because that seems the best way to understand whatever the topic is. If I am left with a conclusion that is incorrect, that indicates I am misunderstanding something. Of course I cannot understand everything out there, but hopefully I can at least recognize that I don't have enough information to make even a tentative conclusion, and simply study that issue more before trying to do so. I suppose it all comes down to my desire for accomplishing what I want in the world, and understanding at least those things necessary, important, or interesting to me (another subjective personal value).

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yeah, as objective as I try to be, there are some sensitive topics where personal connection/Fi makes me irrational. That need, in my case and as it relates to Fi, is a need to live by a "right" code. A need to have "right" values. In which case, I can't help but wonder, in much the same way as Coriolis, what the benefit would be of easing up on that. Unless that would entail forgiving yourself for being a hypocrite, because being human means being a hypocrite.
    The closest feeling I think I have to this is when I have to proceed in the absence of enough supporting information; when I know the facts are sketchy or shaky at best, and I'm not even getting a clear heading from Ni. I really avoid acting in such conditions, and when I do, I end up in a draining treadmill of frustrated fact-checking and endless contingency mapping (I can't narrow down the solution, so have to plan for very many possibilties). I have actually become better at just letting go in these situations and taking it one step at a time, allowing the new information to come to me bit by bit and making course corrections as needed. Sort of like actually steering rather than running on a well-programmed autopilot.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Now, I'm not going to insist that you aren't using Ti at all. Of course you are. I'm just pointing out how much you very likely use Ni to do the tasks that one would normally attribute to Ti. Ti, from Nardi's observations, uses a mental state that has a higher energy than Ni. It excels at calculations, at classifications, at estimating probabilities. In your case, Ni is very likely guiding where and how you apply your analysis, where you intuitively see the most productive avenues of research. Fe probably also plays a role if the kind of data you're analyzing is related to the social sciences: Fe knows what the categories are. Ti's role will be more in terms of determining consistency, in these kinds of cases.
    This is really interesting! I think I can maybe pinpoint Ti (as opposed to Ni) by how much energy it takes me to do it - energy not necessarily in the Nardi sense (not sure) but energy at least in the sense of my dom process (natural as breathing) versus tert process (painstakingly energy intensive).

    And not sure if this is what you meant by consistency, but all that detailed data work, comparing what I sense is going on with the actual data - that would be the specific part that is Ti-heavy in my research processes..

    And yes, Fe helps with - not the categories, exactly, but maybe something about what the data categories mean or ... something along those lines. I guess I just take that part for granted. The problem with Fe-aux in me is that it's not critical of the external value material. Quite the opposite - it assigns it a default high legitimacy that then comes into conflict with Ni a lot of the time. So the colder critical analysis part has to be something other than Fe. And Ni is a perceiving function, underneath consciousness as you point out.

    Anyway, I think there's merit in looking at the role that Ni has played in some aspects of my formal and informal research processes. When I think about it with Ni in mind, the thing I can see right up front is the Ni capacity (being discussed in another thread right now, actually) to shift perspective in particular ways. And yes, Ni is qwuite likely guiding where and how I apply the analysis, I can see that when I think about the experience of how I navigate huge masses of data.

    See, I'm always able to explain my reasoning ... except, um, that wasn't how I reasoned it. Ni figured it out, in a snap.
    This resonates for me. I think there is a sort of disconnect between the research experience as it flows for me, and the ways I can clearly show the reasoning that go there. But Ti is part of that, at least in the background. It's like, Ti's painstaking intensely detailed data tracking/coding and analysis gives a sort of analytical legitimacy that - well, even if no one wants to see all the data coding and details and running of different categories etc etc to show that the data does in fact yield the conclusions, I know it's there and that probably helps with any Fe-aux pull to discount whatever approach I may take or analyses I might offer.

    Which actually brings me back to the one function of Ti that is most obvious to me and the one that seemed to actually make sense to you in reading what I wrote - Ti as a counterbalance/foil for Fe-aux:

    That totally makes sense. Ti is the balance for Fe. As you say, it's the long way around. Ti (and Fi) are fairly slow in execution, even among Ti/Fi doms.
    I would suspect that was your Ni/Fe arguing with his Te, not your Ti. Inductive and qualitative are characteristic of Ni, not Ti, in my experience. Also, Fe deals well with qualitative reasoning/analysis. Ti is much more deductive and quantitative, though not in the Te way. Rather, Ti internalizes all of the logic and reasoning, and thus theoretical logic gains a prominence over empirical logic in the Ti approach.
    On reflection, I can see Ni/Fe in how I made the argument: For example, Ni providing the easy (for me) perceptual comprehension that we're dealing with two completely different sets of assumptions about how anyone knows what we know, and Fe giving me the willingness to engage to some extent with the alien logics I had to put up with from her (my diss. director) in order to do the work that I felt drawn to do.

    If you have some citations for Ti being deductive and quantitative, I'd like to see them. I've never been entirely sure that my Ti/inductive/contextual/qual vs Te/deductive/universalizing/quant mappings are correct but I haven't come across anything suggesting Ti as deductive and quantitative. If Ti is in fact more top-down theoretical, though, that could take it out of the inductive/contextual/qual realm.

    ---------------------

    My musings above may not make clear how much I appreciate your comments here. If Ti isn't as intimately connected with my reseacher-layer, if Ni plays a bigger role in that process than I thought, then that opens up a possible small paradigm shift for me in how I understand where I'm headed from here. I'm shifting away from certain core aspects of Fe-aux, a cognitive process that I developed as a mode of survival and communication in my younger years. If Ti's main role in my life has been in relation to Fe-aux, and if Ni has been more involved in my researcher-mode than I believed, that opens up a door I didn't even know was there. Don't know what it means, but .... awesome.

    And with this ^ ^, maybe this comment is coming back to the initial topic of the thread in some way. I may very well have been wrong in key aspects of my understanding of how Ti functions in something as major for me as my researcher-layer. What I feel about being wrong in this is ... excitement at what seems like it could be a really promising little paradigm shift for me. Thank you!

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    So I've started noticing this habit of mine and other people and started producing alternative narratives to counter this reflex in me without infuriating my supergo (and thus not feeling bad about myself)...And I've associated Ti-tert with the thing that produces these counter narratives...
    This resonates for me to some extent. As I see it, judging functions produce narratives, while perceiving functions don't. Fe-aux in me assigns high initial legitimacy to narratives external to myself, and this can do me harm. As a foil to this Fe-aux situation, Ti plays some sort of role in counter-narrative, but in the end it's exhausting, not solid ground and I need to get back to Ni (Ni-Se is best) perception to really feel well. It's like Ti can provide a temporary patch that allows space for a return to center.

    I feel like I just had an experience like this a few days ago. Since I've been tracking stuff like this lately, I watched it happen as it unfolded in me. Someone I care about was in pain and lashed out at me and pushed a framework that I, organically, don't share and in fact experience as alien and disorienting in its assumptions about cause and effect. I had an immediate visceral Ni-Se response of "that feels nasty/icky/ugh" but Fe-aux still moved to accept the external narrative as valid despite my visceral reaction. However - I've had enough experience with this framework, collected enough detailed data over time, done enough painstakingly detailed analysis of that data, that I was able to patch in a counter-narrative from that detailed data-analysis space. It was like waves inside of me: Fe-aux pushing that external/alien framework as valid, the counter-narrative (largely Ti-sourced) rising up to push back, and underneath it all, the Ni-Se perception that is organic to me. I rode out the waves and came back to center. The counter narratives aren't organic to me and are only temporarily useful. But useful nonetheless.

  6. #76
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

  7. #77
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    So you don't care to win an argument or make a friend, you only care for the truth.
    I do not care to win an argument or make a friend at the cost of truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    But the truth will never hold your hand. The truth will never look into your eyes. The truth will never kiss you.
    Someone who likewise values truth can though! No others need apply.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  8. #78
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    I do not care to win an argument or make a friend at the cost of truth.

    Someone who likewise values truth can [kiss me] though! No others need apply.
    It is small wonder that I prefer to be told beautiful lies.

    For the more lies the more kisses.

    And the more beautiful the lie, the more beautiful the kiss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    there's something that frustrates me still about this topic. i feel resistant to allowing others to choose for me, but part of that is simply that i don't always realize the responsibility to choose for myself.

    being willing to being wrong is the willingness to stay with yourself when you no longer agree with the choice you have made. it is a fundamental commitment you have to make as a person. only through that can you truly respect yourself as a real person. only through that commitment to both know yourself and to let go of yourself can you continue beyond yourself. it is the relationship you have to commit to in order to truly accept what you can control and let go of the rest. it is the way you both accept and challenge yourself at the same time, how you can be both what you are and what you are not at the same time.


    If you try, but fail to evaluate your past behaviors, then you will remain, unknowingly, in a stalemate, with the false hope that you've missed the solution to your problem. You would carry hope because it gives you shelter in the solving of the problem itself. Not only would this seem to lift you up above clarity and knowledge, it would also seem to drag you below it. Being unwilling to being wrong pains you because you are in a tangle, unable to see where you fit in to what is "right". You grasp for straws, using one diction or another as a crutch. Until you realize that you're better than the struggle to carry that ill-fitted crutch, you don't grow. If you should decide that you're better than the struggle, then that crutch becomes an unused relic. Though it remains, you see it and know that it is less than your full potential.

  10. #80
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is where INFJs really get Te wrong. It feels like "steamrolling" to you, the same way Fe feels smarmy to Te. The communication of each side (Te/Fe) happens on a different qualitative level, and each side is usually (but not always) blind to the other side's concerns.

    The reason you don't see Te types complaining about "steamrolling" from other Te types is that Te types find a logistical consensus together, a kind of consensus to which a lot of Fe types appear to be blind. Te types communicate their "Te needs" to each other, get buy in, and move forward. Replace Te with Fe in that sentence, and it works the same way. The problem is that the "Te needs" aren't "people-motivated", if you will, are not "personal." So it looks like the Te types are just bumping and bruising their way through the world, to the Fe types: there is no obvious concern for people, for courtesy. There is, if you look for it, but it is very hard for Fe to see. Similarly, Te types are blind to Fe-style consensus: they can move forward with a plan, thinking everything is OK, but it falls apart because while there was a Te consensus, the Fe consensus was missing. In a business setting, wise managers learn to accommodate both styles (not that they recognize them by their typological terms).
    i have an easier time jumping in here than your previous question, so i'd like to add my two cents here.

    i remember you used to reference the four agreements. i found the description of the mind compelling, but i had trouble with "don't take anything personally." from an Fi perspective when i focus on empathizing with underlying needs and stay away from intention, this kind of makes sense. and i recognize how Te can be helpful here to secure specific, logistical agreements, a kind of methodological process that selects more singular, specific criteria for making shared judgments and moving forward in terms of concrete behaviors accountable to the agreements.

    where i struggle, however, is that a big part of me desires feeling connected. sharing more than infrastructure. my default is to feel that everything is shared, every part of us, which is partly why i think i have struggled with boundary issues in the past. at times, for this e5, this sense of feeling like everything is shared can also colocate a kind of ghostly paranoia, when you feel like you can see more than you can and struggle to ground yourself in your own version of reality in a way that is still but only semi-permeable to those of others.

    one of the things we want to share in our sense of consensus is sharing the good in ourselves and seeing that in each other, helping connect to that in a way that brings it into focus. when that doesn't happen for me, i don't feel heard. all that middle territory between my needs and the exact specifics between what is said and done feels empty. where we can simply like each other and our weird musicalities (which i think the infps i know totally get too, and why i have so many awkward, quirky writer friends). at times, to me, without this middle range of who we are, empathy feels reduced to a function that can be used to accomplish a specific thing rather than a process that is itself enough, that is simply part of the process of constructively sharing and enjoying the process of characterizing ourselves together.

    granted, even as a teacher, i can see how sometimes these motives are messy, unclear, confusing, or can potentially cross boundaries. it's really difficult to hold a kind of legalistic accountability to anything in this way. i mean, it's choosing a different type of knowledge than epistemological knowledge. it's a kind of tacit knowledge, a kind of underlying belief, an aesthetic knowledge that we use to make ecological decisions based on what feels beautiful to us. most of the time, we don't even get to claim this as a form of knowledge, when its formalization is there, just difficult for our disembodied, disconnected from ourselves society to even respect. we have no patience to wait for our knowledge to be revealed to us, to arrest our minds.

    Right. And I bet "drama" isn't quite the right word for it, in your mind: it's about being courteous, finding consensus, and working with people instead of through them. Right? Te isn't steamrolling, it's instead a different kind of courtesy, a different kind of consensus, and a different way of working with people. But it feels like steamrolling because it lacks that personal touch, it lacks that moral sense that an Fe type is looking for.
    this feels right to me. the part of Te i have struggled with is that it feels like the negotiations about the negotiations behind the negotiations don't start from a sense of common ground. that's why it feels like it's working through me rather than with me. i want to identify with how a shared sense of who we are predicts where we can go together, rather than isolating ourselves and instead stressing taking responsibility to assert our own needs and expecting others to do the same without feeling any obligation to consider them beyond what they say and do. i do see why both are necessary. i appreciate the clarity that Te offers in terms of focusing on behaviors and objective criteria whose accountability can survive translation and create the needed boundaries for respecting choice in a way that sometimes i know in my own life i have obscured.

    The reason for the distinction appears to be that Fe is personal, and therefore interactions via Fe deal more with willpower than interactions via Te. Te is impersonal (though not impartial), so there really isn't any feeling of forcing one's will upon the world. The world is already there, the world is fact, and all Te types can do is strive to know the facts. If my facts "beat" your facts, that isn't me imposing my will upon you, I just happen to have the better facts in that case. In a Te-style organization, it is not uncommon for low-level workers to make factual observations about what works and what doesn't, and the higher-ups saying, "Yeah, that makes sense. Let's upgrade our processes like you suggested." And it isn't about trying to make the low-level workers feel better, it's that a good idea (in Te land) is a good idea, no matter the source. It isn't judged based on who says it, but on whether it stands on its own merits. For whatever reason, it's difficult for some INFJs to see this, but I know it's not impossible, because when I get a chance to explain it to INFJ friends in person, most of them seem to get it, or at least explaining it somehow develops a rapport with them such that I can say things in Te ways and they don't get offended.
    bolded feels e5/head type to me more than an inherent Fe quality. just focusing on mentation, identifying with information quality rather than the force of it, but having the force of it be sublimated by a lack of connection to ourselves and how we use it and it uses us. it certainly wouldn't seem to characterize an e8 etj accurately.

    in my class, i am extremely open to student feedback. i pride myself in choosing what feels true to me, and that attempt to honor the truth is as central to me as a person as anyone i've ever known. i don't think i'm just biasing against certain types. at times, the models i have of individuals may create some needless construction traffic, and i knowingly admit this, but i choose to still employ models in general because it at times allows me to see so much further into the truth i would not be able to see solely through my own perspective. it's what allows me to share myself in the way that i do. it's what allows me to listen to others, which isn't always perfect, but in my tangible real-life relationships, is as big a part of who i am there, with others, as any other.

    to me, this Fe quality, this way of organizing thinking based on embodied meanings/models, is not an inherent problem. the inherent problem is not checking in with myself to try to fully own the rest of me, so that i don't unknowingly create the perfect conditions for my biases to cross-multiply. so that i can have some T accountability to recognize the story of what is happening and how the story of what i am bringing to this moment can define how to walk the tightrope without losing my balance.

    (even now, when you've written a series of very balanced posts, i still am working on not taking things personally. that's just because a need of mine is to feel proud of who i am. i am acutely sensitive of this, so it drives my behavior even when i lose awareness of it. i know what it's like to feel the drops that are associated with having to grieve your own limitations. i have searched endlessly for a way out of having limitations, of having to come to terms with being a finite, fallible being. i've experienced the pitiableness of being, of selfhood, and have to work really hard to find acceptance for that. that's also why i think, in some of the previous infj/infp threads, with so many e4s and critical e1 energies falling backwards into us and watching the pile up that ensues and wanting to blame to avoid feeling what we feel, the need for compassion is so high but so hard to actually create enough space within ourselves for. i say this simply because this is a part of me that wants to feel heard, and also because i believe it provides more evidence that in some respects, i think we were both on the right track in pointing out the perhaps greater relevance of the enneagram's psychosocial factors than jung's socio-cognitive ones).

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