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  1. #31
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Explain your thinking on this dear phobik.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #32
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, I think it is very INFJ'ish but more specifically, it's Fe in action. The veracity of information is very much tied to who delivers that information in the Fe world. There's this association of people and information in Fe that is much more "at the hip" than in the Te - Fi world. For Te - Fi, the two seem far more separated.

    Note how my old chestnut "Je is always right" barely registers for you. But to INFJ, it's a very hot button. Actually, thanks to this thread I'll update that one: "Je is attached to the condition of being right." And it is. But to Te, it's easier to let go of that because your ego structure is not AS invested in the sharing of the "objective logical" space through Fe.

    I've witnessed so many occasions irl I can hardly count them all where two people are saying basically the same thing but the person who is more "liked" or "credible" is listened to more seriously. I think for myself, as a Je last, I can be most detached to see this? Not sure. But it is something I seem to frequently notice.

    Don't have time this morning to more fully flesh this out.
    peacebaby, i understand you are trying to explain this, but what about how it could feel to someone else in my position? for instance, if you got in a fight with another person that escalated quite a bit, and then you went around talking about them in public, trying to establish facts about them that were gleaned from your uniquely privileged perspective (as a Je last, which you seem to use as evidence that you understand them the best), what would that feel like if you were in their shoes? what would it look like to you as an objective observer? what would you do when you as a person had to try to balance those two for yourself? would you be frustrated and feel like from the perspective of the objective observer, that was wrong, and would that challenge your ability to empathize with yourself more than seemed fair to you, because you have to make up the difference about what it feels like through your own self-compassion?

    i mean, is it generally a useful approach to reconciling conflict by talking about what someone else is and trying to take control of that, rather than working outward from your own needs and finding a place where you can connect to some kind of empathy with them or with, even more importantly, yourself? Te does not work without Fi registering its own needs. it's just domineering. it's just focusing on playing the rightness game, which often times prevents real listening (as an impersonalization of "knowledge" can tend to do, especially if the knowledge is not rigorous, reflexive, and as aware of its limitations as it can possibly be). just like Fe doesn't work without being able to hold yourself accountable to committing to your own reality (Ti). is it better to deny that conflict even exists so that you can act without being reflexive to the context surrounding why you choose what you do? that may work for Te/Fi in some sense, and maybe it even works for Ti/Fe in some sense, but it doesn't seem to me to ever work for the F part of that, the relational part. it's just easier to communicate if the relationship is positive. i don't think this is a type thing. i think it's an F thing, which is a crucial part of all of us, even if some types of activities and some types of participants can shift their focus away from this more so.

    furthermore, if you were in the place trying to negotiate your objective reality with your inner experience, and you were already sensitive from a fight, would this behavior signal to you, as an objective observer, an attachment to being right on the part of the other? would that be frustrating? what would an attachment to being right look like to you? to me it looks like an unwillingness to listen to what others are experiencing and how your actions affect others quality of experience. that's how it shows up in me and in others actions that i've observed. would you be more or less likely, if you felt hostility from someone and your own anger rose to meet it, to hear them as well as if they approached you with openness that helped you relax and be more open as a result? how would you feel if, for another person after a conflict, this is the only activity in the thread that is worthy of participating in, the chance to talk about the other and try to get to define them once more? i understand that questions are controlling in their own right. all conversation is, because we have to negotiate the context. i don't know how else to try to show that i find this frustrating, or open up my experience in a way that is objectively defined enough to be shared. you are making claims (in this case, about us). that's what Te does. i can refute you, but generally the F side of that process gets ugly. if you made a claim about how a specific behavior that we could both observe affected you in a specific instance, that would be a way of using Te that would not have so much F fallout. that's because a) it's less of a sweeping generalization b) we can observe it, so it doesn't just feel like an attack on us as a whole and c) it's easier to test/verify. this latter is important, because i DO NOT DOUBT that there is a grain of truth to what you see. but regardless, it's difficult not to think that your claims are too big for you to make, and wonder why you feel the need to make those.

    finally, for my needs, i don't need any peacemaking with umlau. i can speak for myself. i understand if you feel you have needed information and that, from a Te perspective, you have feel you have every right to interrupt to supply that. bc it's just information. others can test it for themselves. you're just putting it out there. you have the right to add whatever information you have that can direct where things go from here. but what about if the relationship between you and the person addressed is in a challenging place for both of you? would that interruption be more provoking, if you then addressed and attempted to define him, rather than let him answer? umlau and coriolis have asked very good questions which i personally need time to consider, because i want to understand the disconnect between us, because i recognize we are different and understanding what that difference is like for him and what it is like for me helps me feel connected to myself in a bigger way, because i can appreciate and enjoy relating with those who are different than me and still take that in as part of myself, can still share across those boundaries of mentation.

  3. #33
    I want my account deleted
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    Another interesting discussion heading into the proverbial crapper - hopefully it will pull itself out.

    eta:

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    umlau and coriolis have asked very good questions which i personally need time to consider, because i want to understand the disconnect between us, because i recognize we are different and understanding what that difference is like for him and what it is like for me helps me feel connected to myself in a bigger way, because i can appreciate and enjoy relating with those who are different than me and still take that in as part of myself, can still share across those boundaries of mentation.
    I myself personally have nearly always found INFJ-INTJ dialogue incredibly enlightening when it comes to my own learning processes, and hope that part of the discussion gets back on track sooner than later.

  4. #34
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Explain your thinking on this dear phobik.
    Subjectively personal experiences, psychologically complex, entrenched dysfunctional behavior, too much, too often, too many threads, chalked under the conveniently available, widely accepted, laziness-enabling, typology stereotypes umbrella. This site is flooded with it.

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #35
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The interesting thing is that "wrongness" is being compared to "having the flu." To me, wrongness is not a state of being. It is not intrinsic to me. Rather, it is a state of knowledge. And if you're used to dealing with knowledge, then being right, sometimes, and being wrong, sometimes, is part of how people learn things, in general. For me, there are no emotions (or values) associated with it.
    This seems (to me) like a semantic dis-junction more than an actual experiential one. Does it.....seem/feel wrong to use the term "wrongness" to refer to this state of being? [Or maybe I'm wondering if there's something offensive (?) about referring to 'wrongness' as something that exists inside people (intrinsic to the intrapersonal condition of being human)?]

    [I say this in part because I have directly experienced being on the other end of an INTJ being stuck in a state of being in which the aversion to feeling wrong declares a coup over rational logic. No matter what the 'type' (INFJ/INTJ, J/P, N/S, whatever...), all people are subject to this state of being. It's always more obvious to observers than it is to the person who is doing it.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #36
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This seems (to me) like a semantic dis-junction more than an actual experiential one. Does it.....seem/feel wrong to use the term "wrongness" to refer to this state of being? [Or maybe I'm wondering if there's something offensive (?) about referring to 'wrongness' as something that exists inside people (intrinsic to the intrapersonal condition of being human)?]
    I believe there is an experiential difference. It isn't about any particular term. The INFJ description of this is so very animate, I cannot identify with it. That there is this thing, this entity, this "wrongness" or whatever we call it, and we must face it in battle and win (or in humility seek surrender). Really, I boggle at it. So much drama seeking catharsis.

    One of the ways in which INTJs annoy other people is that we appear to pretend to be never wrong, when what's really going on inside our head has no drama, no pain. There's no bowing to whatever gods in abject humiliation asking for forgiveness for the hubris of ever thinking that we were right. No, none of that. It's just "F-ck. That's wrong. Let's find the right answer." And usually, we realize that we were wrong BECAUSE we just found the right answer. I'm wrong all the time. It happens every day. It's called learning, and I'm usually thankful for it.

    [I say this in part because I have directly experienced being on the other end of an INTJ being stuck in a state of being in which the aversion to feeling wrong declares a coup over rational logic. No matter what the 'type' (INFJ/INTJ, J/P, N/S, whatever...), all people are subject to this state of being. It's always more obvious to observers than it is to the person who is doing it.]
    Every type is certainly capable of getting a stick up one's butt and insist on "my way or the highway" right or wrong. The difference between types is where and when and how. INTJs, usually lacking enough information (Se), can insist upon particular truths that are patently untrue. INFJs often do something that I call "writing between the lines": they assign values to words to which other parties do not subscribe, and run from there, making baseless judgments to which any counterargument is dismissed as the other person being "defensive." INTPs tend to assume that they are 100% right in their area of expertise, which is absolutely true, until they're wrong about one particular thing.

    Where I differentiate is the emotional reaction to realizing that one is (or might be) wrong. For me, as an INTJ, there is, at worst, a fleeting feeling of embarrassment, but usually there is no feeling at all. I'm not sure what INTPs feel inside, but they tend to get very cagey when it turns out that they were incorrect to disbelieve what I was saying. INFJs, I perceive, have a great deal of feeling about it. Perhaps it might even be described as kind of an epiphany? With INFJs, I suspect that being wrong always has a "moral" component to it, that INTJs simply don't have.

    The interesting thing about it to me is that it appears to point to a typological difference between Fe and Te that is fairly substantial (in spite of the peanut gallery's protestations!). I believe PB's observation on the matter is fairly apt, and if not perfect, points in the right direction: that there is something about Fe such that being right or wrong is a remarkably personal matter, that Te simply doesn't see it as personal, and it explains a lot of criticisms I've heard from INFJs and INTPs about INTJs that I never seem to hear from INFPs.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Or maybe the INFPs are just suck-ups.

  8. #38
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Or maybe the INFPs are just suck-ups.
    Interestingly, INFPs have different criticisms. They tend to question INTJs on their emotional self-knowledge, an appropriately Fi matter, and only the most naive INTJs claim to understand their emotional selves, so it turns out to be a remarkably easy interaction, usually.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    That explains a lot, actually.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i was trying to remark on the willingness that comes from practicing staying in that space of "wrongness" in a way that you can learn to hear the surrounding context around it much more clearly, with less urgency to get out of there, with more confidence that you can be patient with yourself. for me, the difficulty in developing enough self-trust so that passing through the identifications with wrongness won't escalate into a situation in which i feel like i am being hunted down by shame. i feel like clinging to the need to be right, rather than seeing it simply as a motive to change to align with right, will always leave other traces too. to do so without anger or self-resentment, without disappointment, without hearing why those beliefs may have resulted at least in part from a need springing out of you and not emerging out of the facts purportedly outside of you, seems difficult to do without really checking in with yourself.
    This really helped me.

    As a person who isn't terribly factual, I tend to be very insecure about getting things "right". I am usually quick to admit I've made a mistake, but not in a healthy way. In that moment when I am being corrected, I mentally lash myself, and (unfortunately) close myself off from really accepting it neutrally.

    Like you said (I think), if you realize your mistake, and mentally think "Oh SHIT!" and then quickly admit how stupid you were, it's still coming from a place of needing to identify yourself as right.

    Being corrected should happen like this:

    Me: Pi is exactly 3.
    Guy: Actually, Pi is is roughly 3.14159
    Me: Oh? How do you know this?
    Guy: *proves statement*
    Me: I see I was wrong. 3.14159 is roughly equivalent to Pi.

    The End


    This is how I actually operate:

    Me: Pi is exactly 3.
    Guy: Actually, Pi is is roughly 3.14159
    Me: Oh? How do you know this?
    Guy: *proves statement*
    Me: I see I was wrong. 3.14159 is roughly equivalent to Pi.*neutral face*

    But privately...




    I wasn't posting here when Hoffman died, so I'm a bit late to the party, but what a loss

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