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  1. #21
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    wrong factually no problem, wrong valueably gfyt
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #22
    Senior Member NK258's Avatar
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    I think I've been wrong enough in my life to welcome the notion I might be wrong. This doesn't mean I let people choose for me. It just means I'm receptive to input. However, I do think in the past I've done a number on pushing people into positions where they felt I wasn't approachable. but in reality, I do better with people who have guts and are willing to kick a shoe to my head if need be. :p
    6w7 Sx/Sp (621 or 612. Same diff :p).

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm wondering if there is something very INFJ-ish being expressed here, that is lost on the INTJ? Boundary of wrongness? Softening? Identification? From my perspective its more like, "Well, shit, I guess I was wrong." It's accompanied by the (perhaps unmerited) thought, "Well, at least NOW I'm right."
    That is likely. I have read post 15 addressing my comments several times over, and still just don't get it. I cannot imagine wanting "to stay in a state of wrongness". That makes about as much sense as enjoying having the flu.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    (Again, state, correct me if this isn't what you mean.) There's (1) actual wrongness, an adjective to describe the actual objective condition of information and (2) there's 'wrongness' in the sense of describing a condition of being. We're all trapped in a subjective praxis of thought striving to achieve objective rightness/avoid objective wrongness. And I believe the context in which state is using wrongness in post 15 isn't about striving to achieve objective wrongness (which is what I think Coriolis is hearing) but about paying attention to the condition of wrongness and/or the urge in oneself to avoid objective wrongness. Because instinctively it is about enjoyable as having the flu, so people instinctively avoid it- but somewhere in there this instinct can actually make us avoid the condition of being wrong (or at least, avoiding the way it feels- we can avoid the feeling of being wrong) over and above avoiding actual wrongness. The way to avoid this trap is realize that the condition of wrongness isn't actually so bad in the first place.

    This is why state made the comment about 'practicing the feeling of wrongness'- it's about desensitizing oneself to the aversion. There's a phrase for this, but I've forgotten what it is. It's like- the way to get over being afraid of spiders is to actually interact with them until the aversion is gone. [eta: With spiders though, it's a very clear process with objective criteria- the condition of being wrong is infinitely trickier.]

    If there's an INFJ difference here, it's in the way it's being discussed. I think. Probably. [My guess is the Ti is giving y'all a headache/seems whiny.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #25
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    The interesting thing is that "wrongness" is being compared to "having the flu." To me, wrongness is not a state of being. It is not intrinsic to me. Rather, it is a state of knowledge. And if you're used to dealing with knowledge, then being right, sometimes, and being wrong, sometimes, is part of how people learn things, in general. For me, there are no emotions (or values) associated with it.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #26
    I want my account deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The interesting thing is that "wrongness" is being compared to "having the flu." To me, wrongness is not a state of being. It is not intrinsic to me. Rather, it is a state of knowledge. And if you're used to dealing with knowledge, then being right, sometimes, and being wrong, sometimes, is part of how people learn things, in general. For me, there are no emotions (or values) associated with it.
    My first thought was I that agree with this - for me, wrongness is not a state of being nor intrinsic to me. A state of knowledge makes sense to me as an alternative, though I think maybe for me a state of understanding might be more accurate. I've been known to actually enjoy being wrong if it's part of a learning and/or research process.

    Tangent:


    That was my first thought. But my second thought was that I could imagine wrongness as a state of being, in my case. For me, it would mean that my perceiving apparatus itself would be damaged or broken in some way. I think that would be a terrible space to be in, and I bet it could feel very much like an illness. (actually, I wonder if losing access to Se in service to Ni when I was a child falls into that category. It was incredibly disorienting for me and actually, I could see how it could map to feeling physically ill, that sense that something isn't well/right inside).

    I have no idea if any of my comment here is relevant to the focus of this thread, though.

  7. #27
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    This has been a really interesting conversation to read, thank you @the state i am in and all who have contributed.

    I resonate with the reluctance to be wrong in terms of identity. My father is an INTP e593 doctor, and my mother a teacher, and my dad's family is a bit competitive in general while my mom's family is very "wholesome" in terms of doing good/being ethical, and there was always much focus on being knowledgeable, upright, and competent during my childhood. Plus I believe I carry plenty of that in my own personality in terms of wanting to be secure in a position (e6/soc) of trusted data and reliable capability. So to be wrong is to be uncomfortable on a number of levels... not just in the unfortunate consequences of acting upon and/or spreading inaccurate information, but also in terms of my self-concept as well as my reputation with others.

    I'm still working on getting more graceful at acquiescing, to be sure. As state pointed out, e7s seem to have a natural ability to accept it and make the most of it. Lately I've been starting with just saying, "oh, I was wrong!" - getting the painful part of admitting it squared away ASAP so I can move on. I think it's good, though, to be knocked on your ass occasionally... again like state said, the universe reminding you that it's bigger than you can ever become. There's some joy in being a work of progress. A long time ago I wandered across the concept of knowledge being created in the gap between things and I thought that was a really lovely way of putting it. I'd rather not be wrong if I can avoid it, but at the same time, it's good to keep a reverent space for development of understanding. After all, we can easily look back on history and see how much incomplete knowledge there is... medical knowledge for example... and even if we try to avoid it there's virtually no getting around falling into certain misconceptions. In other words - being wrong is inevitable to a certain extent... messy, interesting, mysterious part of life that it is. I figure it's like coming to terms with the fact that you're going to get a faceful of saltwater and sand every once in a while when you're surfing. It kind of sucks but it keeps you humble and it's barely a blip on the radar when it comes to getting meaning out of life.

  8. #28
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm wondering if there is something very INFJ-ish being expressed here, that is lost on the INTJ? Boundary of wrongness? Softening? Identification? From my perspective its more like, "Well, shit, I guess I was wrong." It's accompanied by the (perhaps unmerited) thought, "Well, at least NOW I'm right."
    Perhaps it has something to do with superego (internalized/critical parent) berating ego for making a mistake, being wrong, bad, faulty somehow...

    Perhaps INFJs have not received positive reinforcement and validation growing up and have been expected to "perform" to their parents satisfaction so as to avoid criticism...so they've internalized the criticism, and being "wrong" (i.e. being unable to interpret a situation correctly and failing to resolve the situation) triggers a learnt/internalized reflex and self-criticism and berating?

    It reflexively makes us doubt the veracity our past judgments as well as our present Ni capacity to make further judgments...as already stated by @Werebudgie...

    So taking baby steps towards allowing ourselves to make mistakes and getting away with it without too much self-criticism may perhaps help dismantling that reflex and the accompanying bad feelings...This, I believe, is the point @the state i am in was trying make in his #1 post, which, you @Coriolis likened to enjoying the flu...

    So I (as an INFJ) appear to have tied my ego's well being (and self worth) to being correct...However I believe that reflex starts to loosen up as my Ti gets stronger...a strong Ti can offer counter narratives to offset my superego's self-criticism as well as external criticism that may seep through Fe-aux?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    The interesting thing is that "wrongness" is being compared to "having the flu." To me, wrongness is not a state of being. It is not intrinsic to me. Rather, it is a state of knowledge. And if you're used to dealing with knowledge, then being right, sometimes, and being wrong, sometimes, is part of how people learn things, in general. For me, there are no emotions (or values) associated with it.
    The ill feeling that INFJs associate with ending up wrong, I believe, manifests itself specifically when a judgment INFJs voiced out (to the public or people around) with conviction turns out to be wrong...rather than instances where INFJs rectify their incorrect information thru ongoing learning process...

    The thing about it being voiced out in public (which signifies a commitment made by the INFJ) and ending up wrong poses a vulnerability to the INFJs thru external (public) Fe feedback I believe, which the INFJ cannot shake off easily and internalizes, and also tarnishes INFJs' reputation in terms of reliability...This may, as I pointed out earlier, have it's origins in incidents in INFJs' childhood when INFJs have received negative feedback regarding their conclusions, judgments and actions...

    Doesn't recognizing being wrong (about a publicly voiced out judgment) initiate a process in you to doubt your earlier judgments and question the soundness of your overall cognitive capabilities?

  9. #29
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm wondering if there is something very INFJ-ish being expressed here, that is lost on the INTJ? Boundary of wrongness? Softening? Identification? From my perspective its more like, "Well, shit, I guess I was wrong." It's accompanied by the (perhaps unmerited) thought, "Well, at least NOW I'm right."
    Yes, I think it is very INFJ'ish but more specifically, it's Fe in action. The veracity of information is very much tied to who delivers that information in the Fe world. There's this association of people and information in Fe that is much more "at the hip" than in the Te - Fi world. For Te - Fi, the two seem far more separated.

    Note how my old chestnut "Je is always right" barely registers for you. But to INFJ, it's a very hot button. Actually, thanks to this thread I'll update that one: "Je is attached to the condition of being right." And it is. But to Te, it's easier to let go of that because your ego structure is not AS invested in the sharing of the "objective logical" space through Fe.

    I've witnessed so many occasions irl I can hardly count them all where two people are saying basically the same thing but the person who is more "liked" or "credible" is listened to more seriously. I think for myself, as a Je last, I can be most detached to see this? Not sure. But it is something I seem to frequently notice.

    Don't have time this morning to more fully flesh this out.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #30
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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