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  1. #11
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    I don't see what's so hard about being wrong. If a factual error ever has social value (as in "winning" a dispute on it), I'm not going to feel it, just feel terrible for what I've disseminated. I need to research and reason through an opinion for a long time before deeming it solid enough to espouse out loud, where it can affect real actions and people. Truthfulness is a big responsibility to me, and I'm perfectionistic about it.
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  2. #12
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    I don't see what's so hard about being wrong. If a factual error ever has social value (as in "winning" a dispute on it), I'm not going to feel it, just feel terrible for what I've disseminated. I need to research and reason through an opinion for a long time before deeming it solid enough to espouse out loud, where it can affect real actions and people. Truthfulness is a big responsibility to me, and I'm perfectionistic about it.
    +1 - I don't argue from the perspective of opinion. Fact beats conjecture every time. If I'm having a discussion vs. an argument, then opinions are fair game - especially since assertive people can agree to disagree. But if I argue, and I do out that somewhere my standpoint was in fact wrong - I own it. It's that simple. If need be I'll apologize, or correct my previous statement accordingly, or both - whatever is most appropriate.
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  3. #13
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I think this means:

    You own up to the mess you created and not blame other people.
    And at the same time you don't get stuck with blaming yourself either.
    You accept this is what it is, let go, and try to make it better.

    Right?
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  4. #14
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    to commit to just *being* (in a dasein kind of way- "to stay with yourself")
    one of those i like you just because moments. i remember one of my favorite book titles ever was another of his, "the fundamental concepts of metaphysics: world, finitude, solitude." if there's a treatise on the world from the perspective of e5ness, it might be this.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I think this means:

    You own up to the mess you created and not blame other people.
    And at the same time you don't get stuck with blaming yourself either.
    You accept this is what it is, let go, and try to make it better.

    Right?
    yeah, the kind of gracefulness through which you can stick the landing, i guess, seems really important to allow yourself to wade through the feeling territory and allow the T side of your self/world to be well-received.

  5. #15
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Yeah! never thought of it that way... rather than back-pedaling, you are owning that it is YOU that made that mistake or choice, and YOU that has to deal with the fallout... and maybe a little bit of grace
    i agree that accountability is necessary, but i think i'm trying to get at what's in between owning it and simply being at your most reactionary. there are downsides of hyperaccountability too. often taking the blame for things that were not your fault (and inheriting generations of blame that in turn harm you and your sense of who you are), not really hearing what's at stake for the other person or yourself because you're too obsessed with the way/philosophy of right, or just restricting your own flexibility in responding to the situation as honestly as you can, because sometimes there's a way more direct way to ask for what you need or hear what the other person needs. letting go of the need for rightness is, in many ways, choosing to side with life.

    to me, softening the boundary of wrongness is just helpful, to be able to flow more freely back into yourself, instead of feeling the tension in your own resistance to others, from feeling like your boundary has been violated or that your freedom of movement has been unfairly restricted in a way that was not justified because you had the rightaway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It is strange how we (humans) tend to attach some fundamental value to the condition of being right, instead of attaching that value directly to information itself- as if it makes us more valuable as individual beings to have correct information. In a way it does, I guess- it can give us credibility in others' eyes when our judgment is sound. But it's generally obvious to other people when we're more attached to the condition of being right than we are interested in distilling the most correct information. So being attached to the condition of being right for the value it brings socially- instead of having that drive for the sake of itself (to be able to trust oneself to know what's correct, rather than to 'be' that person in others' eyes)- is doomed to backfire?

    /might be wrong
    yeah, i think the issue at hand is "identification." and in a sense, it's a big part of us. i think it's just a significant layer of who we are. i'd call it 5th chakra, the throat chakra, and i think it's just what it feels like to identify with our physical and kind of socio-cultural voice, which i don't think is a stretch to say is a big part of our identity. it's part of our word. it's part of our attitude. it's part of our basic capacity to tell our own story. (sometimes we, and our conversations, forget it's also the beginning of our music, which is kind of where politics and academics and legalism turn into art, but even that has its world of good and bad restricting it from itself practicing shifting focus from absolutism to one stressing being in relationship).

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    '
    I don't understand this. It sounds like willful ignorance - clinging to poor choices even once you have realized your error. Did you mean something else?

    I don't like to be wrong, but that motivates me to adjust my opinions in the face of conflicting evidence. I will abandon a position shown to be wrong, or at least adjust my position to account for the new information. Anything else is just self-delusion, or just plain lies.
    sometimes evidence is not so clear cut, and the ability to be reflexive with yourself and broaden your awareness of what you are taking in and what is passing through you in your ever-expanding relational self enables you to see that in some sense wrong/right are not really the crux of the matter. sometimes, you have to let go of that orientation in order to see, especially when in relationship.

    i was trying to remark on the willingness that comes from practicing staying in that space of "wrongness" in a way that you can learn to hear the surrounding context around it much more clearly, with less urgency to get out of there, with more confidence that you can be patient with yourself. for me, the difficulty in developing enough self-trust so that passing through the identifications with wrongness won't escalate into a situation in which i feel like i am being hunted down by shame. i feel like clinging to the need to be right, rather than seeing it simply as a motive to change to align with right, will always leave other traces too. to do so without anger or self-resentment, without disappointment, without hearing why those beliefs may have resulted at least in part from a need springing out of you and not emerging out of the facts purportedly outside of you, seems difficult to do without really checking in with yourself.

  6. #16
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    fear of being wrong can hold you back in life. inability to admit when you're wrong prevents you from growing. attempting and failing is the only way to move forward, the way i see it.

    i've found the more wrong i am, the more i've learned from that situation. i'll never forget the lessons i've learned by getting it wrong, and i'm grateful for them.

    it's so important for me to feel responsible and accountable for my decisions. it gives me a sense of freedom and empowerment that i'm pretty sure i actually *need*.
    i like this. i really appreciate how e7s are able to find gratitude in places where others would struggle to see it. that more than anything is what gives them the freedom to love as they do.

    the only thing i want to add is that i do think, at the same time, finding some kind of support for yourself to grow at the pace that is right for you is also important. we can handle different degrees of wrongness, and sometimes it's not best for us to take on too much of it at once. furthermore, sometimes identifying entirely with our choices can create a trap for us that prevents us from from being patient with and accepting ourselves. one of my e7 friends says, "just do better." that if you focus on that and stay on that, you will have your effort to align with right to appreciate. i like this, and i appreciate having this voice in my ear as part of my own internal jury. i do think, however, those with less tolerance and/or more stress sometimes need to be able to find a sense of purpose that helps them organize their sense of choice. it's a relationship between competing needs: consistently growing more aware vs consistently growing more conscious. the former helps you see what is happening for you, the latter helps you stay oriented with respect to something bigger than you. sometimes you need that to accept that the world is bigger than you can ever become, and that to let it be what it is can teach you to let you be what you are, even in slowness/stillness. for being able to slow down and truly wait with one's sense of choice, rather than NEEDING to make another, is another kind of freedom, a more internal one, and one that helps you love yourself without needing to be in the throes of it, as if it were a place to go, to find its happening, rather than something inside that you attune yourself towards.

  7. #17
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i like this. i really appreciate how e7s are able to find gratitude in places where others would struggle to see it. that more than anything is what gives them the freedom to love as they do.

    the only thing i want to add is that i do think, at the same time, finding some kind of support for yourself to grow at the pace that is right for you is also important. we can handle different degrees of wrongness, and sometimes it's not best for us to take on too much of it at once. furthermore, sometimes identifying entirely with our choices can create a trap for us that prevents us from from being patient with and accepting ourselves. one of my e7 friends says, "just do better." that if you focus on that and stay on that, you will have your effort to align with right to appreciate. i like this, and i appreciate having this voice in my ear as part of my own internal jury. i do think, however, those with less tolerance and/or more stress sometimes need to be able to find a sense of purpose that helps them organize their sense of choice. it's a relationship between competing needs: consistently growing more aware vs consistently growing more conscious. the former helps you see what is happening for you, the latter helps you stay oriented with respect to something bigger than you. sometimes you need that to accept that the world is bigger than you can ever become, and that to let it be what it is can teach you to let you be what you are, even in slowness/stillness. for being able to slow down and truly wait with one's sense of choice, rather than NEEDING to make another, is another kind of freedom, a more internal one, and one that helps you love yourself without needing to be in the throes of it, as if it were a place to go, to find its happening, rather than something inside that you attune yourself towards.
    you're so right. and that's what i love about introverts. i seek you all out to be that calming energy that encourages me to take a deep breath and just be. i know i need it, and i know i can get caught up all too easily in go mode and not take it for myself. kumbaya, anyone?
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  8. #18
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    you're so right. and that's what i love about introverts. i seek you all out to be that calming energy that encourages me to take a deep breath and just be. i know i need it, and i know i can get caught up all too easily in go mode and not take it for myself. kumbaya, anyone?
    haha yeah. we recognize it goes both ways, and most of the time, for me at least, i wish i was more assertive in expressing that. it's good to feel safe, free, and full of love in the world, too, to be committed to the process of MAKING that with others, and not just finding it inside of yourself. the world needs attention, affection, birthday cards and candy, too.

  9. #19
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    Asking question and wondering about our knowledge's level of completion is great, because then We Always search for more novelties!

  10. #20
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    to me, softening the boundary of wrongness is just helpful, to be able to flow more freely back into yourself, instead of feeling the tension in your own resistance to others, from feeling like your boundary has been violated or that your freedom of movement has been unfairly restricted in a way that was not justified because you had the rightaway.

    yeah, i think the issue at hand is "identification." and in a sense, it's a big part of us. i think it's just a significant layer of who we are. i'd call it 5th chakra, the throat chakra, and i think it's just what it feels like to identify with our physical and kind of socio-cultural voice, which i don't think is a stretch to say is a big part of our identity. it's part of our word. it's part of our attitude. it's part of our basic capacity to tell our own story. (sometimes we, and our conversations, forget it's also the beginning of our music, which is kind of where politics and academics and legalism turn into art, but even that has its world of good and bad restricting it from itself practicing shifting focus from absolutism to one stressing being in relationship).
    I'm wondering if there is something very INFJ-ish being expressed here, that is lost on the INTJ? Boundary of wrongness? Softening? Identification? From my perspective its more like, "Well, shit, I guess I was wrong." It's accompanied by the (perhaps unmerited) thought, "Well, at least NOW I'm right."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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