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  1. #11
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    Jung almost literally theorized the introvert is at the mercy of the extrovert in every fashion imaginable.

    I think you're trying to pigeonhole this a little narrow.

  2. #12
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    while the benefits, and wisdoms, of universalist principals have been all but completely abandoned.

    I'm not convinced of what you describe as the causes of this, but I think this has happened, and I think it is a big problem. Right-wing evangelicals tend not to believe in universals... they cannot conceive, for instance, of why such a thing as freedom of religion should exist. But there is the less obvious issue of postmodernism. I think postmodernism and the idea of universals like "fairness" are also incompatible. Apparently, postmodernism caught on about the same time as the Reagan revolution. I do not think this is a coincidence. Big business grows out of control, because the regulatory mechanisms and safety net, based upon universal principles, were weakened. Clinton didn't really shift the paradigm Reagan started, either. I do think it is troubling, though, that people consider something like fairness... that is, a coherent framework of morality that is applicable to everyone, to be "imperialistic". I think when the "tyranny" of universals is lifted, what emerges may not necessarily be the better angels of our nature.

    I think universals are starting to come back into play, though. Occupy Wall Street was largely about universals... and it was surprising to me that people finally demonstrated for something like that, as it was an issue everyone seemed to have forgotten about and dismissed as unimportant.

    Anyway, think about it.... if we cannot truly understand anyone else's perspective, because we are not them, then doesn't this raise a whole host of problems?


    1. This implies that communication is pointless (my experience on Earth has suggested the opposite.). We can never really understand what anyone is saying, anyway, because we do not share their experiences... but that's why language exists! Sure people get stuff wrong sometimes, but that doesn't make it impossible.
    2. Problems cannot be resolved, because true understanding is not possible.
    3. All that is left is the blind acceptance of someone else's claims, which is uncomfortably dictatorial and medieval to me.
    4. People cannot learn from or attempt to correct their biases, because they are fundamentally unable to understand the nature of their mistakes.
    5. A united large group fighting for change is more powerful than a bunch of divided small groups fighting against each other.


    Oh, and I expect pitchforks and torches. I am not saying that differences or identity politics are not relevant, but they are relevant because of universals. The belief that everyone deserves a fair shot regardless of incidental things that don't matter is a universal.... it can be applied to everyone. Postmodernism just mystifies, which ironically does nothing to inoculate against the very biases it seeks to undermine.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    If I were going to make the same point, I would have put Te and Fe together and Ti and Fi together. INTPs and INFPs have no home in this world. Perhaps that's something that must happen by default, given what defines them.
    Ti does not work apart from Fe, nor does Fi from Te.

    The Te/Fi axis works to reconcile external systems with personal desires. Ti/Fe works to reconcile the will of humanity with a personal sense of logic. I'm not entirely sure how the Ti/Fe axis is viewed externally, but Te/Fi is invariably more willing to sacrifice the needs of many for personal gratification.

    I suppose Ti/Fe is more predisposed to ignore the necessity of providing structure to the world(I, personally, do not believe such a necessity exists) in favor of internal clarity, But it is Te that controls, or seeks to control, education, the media, and various other systems that impact the development of civilization based on Fi's egocentric values(not to criticize, all introverted functions are egocentric).

    Whether it is a negative trend or not is dependent on the reader but it does exist.

  4. #14
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I want to reread the OP more thoroughly before responding in more detail. My first reaction is that our (i.e. U.S.) education system relies overmuch on Fe-Si: basically follow the established social norms, do what is expected, and don't rock the boat. I can tell you that, Te-Fi use or not, most NTJs find themselves quite at odds with this approach.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #15
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I want to reread the OP more thoroughly before responding in more detail. My first reaction is that our (i.e. U.S.) education system relies overmuch on Fe-Si: basically follow the established social norms, do what is expected, and don't rock the boat. I can tell you that, Te-Fi use or not, most NTJs find themselves quite at odds with this approach.
    Fe/Si in America has always been an issue for introverted feelers, IMO, and there are a lot of Fe/Si users working within the education system as teachers and such (ESFJs). The system itself, however, is very Te oriented by design-- I don't know a single introverted thinker who struggles with it less than any extroverted thinker. What they typically do seem to struggle with are the people, from time to time.

    I'd also point at academia's relationship with social issues; feminism, liberalism, etc-- and make the bold assertion that liberalism is more Te/Fi than it is Ti/Fe.

  6. #16
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    I recently watched a documentary about the movie poster artist Drew Struzan. Whether or not you know his name, you will know his work, especially if you grew up in the late 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s.

    He's best known for many of the classic Star Wars and Indiana Jones posters, as well as Blade Runner and some of the Police Academy films. He was one of many (Richard Amsel and Saul Bass being other notable poster artists from that era) known for painting posters which often had an almost dreamlike way of depicting film characters and situations. It's arguable that his work often exceeded the films in terms of beauty and creativity, but I digress from the point I was trying to make.

    As the digital revolution progressed into the 1990s and the 2000s, film studios and producers relied more and more on photography and photoshop to produce film posters. This has led to a lot of uninspired, unimaginative, and hastily produced posters that are mostly forgettable, with a few exceptions.

    The point being that technology has gone from being a useful tool that can aid storytelling to being the primary focus and end product in mind for many filmmakers.

    I don't know if this really relates to the OP's point, but I couldn't help making the connection.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Jung almost literally theorized the introvert is at the mercy of the extrovert in every fashion imaginable.
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  8. #18
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    As someone who has worked as a software developer, accountant, computer systems analyst, network and system admin, sales rep, IS analyst, and at least three types of 'engineer,' I can assure you that your top 10 list is chock full of people with all sorts of cognitive preferences.

  9. #19
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    As someone who has worked as a software developer, accountant, computer systems analyst, network and system admin, sales rep, IS analyst, and at least three types of 'engineer,' I can assure you that your top 10 list is chock full of people with all sorts of cognitive preferences.
    I'm sure there are! But do the positions other than those related to sales/engineering really cater much to the distilled nature of Ti/Fe? My point was that big business was gobbling up small business, and that playing cog is, in general, more of a Te/Fi thing.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Jung almost literally theorized the introvert is at the mercy of the extrovert in every fashion imaginable.

    I think you're trying to pigeonhole this a little narrow.
    Yeah. That's true about Jung, but it's odd from an extraverted perspective. Being extraverted sucks a lot in a variety of ways. Grass is greener, I figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimactic
    My point was that big business was gobbling up small business, and that playing cog is, in general, more of a Te/Fi thing.
    The structure does seem so. Though, curiously, I have wandered across many a Fe HR manager gracefully and rigidly enforcing the same asinine rules the big corporations run on, and TPs seem to abound at a lower-management level, as well as thriving in niches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est
    I think society might need more intuitives in general that are interested in long term results rather than sensors' short term results (no offense to sensors).
    Mm, while this matches with theory, I am not sure it really plays out IRL. While NJs are certainly the strongest long-range envisioners, SJs are generally pretty good about ranged planning as well, though it tends to be less in elevated, idealistic goals and more in concrete, practical objectives. I agree that certain manifestations might correlate to a more Te or Si pattern overall, I am not sure it necessarily means that Te or Si thinking is predominantly driving the process, nor that what is needed is a suppression of certain methods that are inherent to certain people... rather I think more cooperation on the whole would be positive, as well as more focus on meeting everyone's needs. Big corporations tend to be so myopic, hyperfocused on the bottom line.

    Unfortunately I feel like it is probably really more of a "greed" cog than anything. I do think there are a handful of respectable large organizations out there, but they are largely public and/or human welfare-oriented.

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