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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Everyone suffers with power imbalances in society. "Be a man!" would not be so destructive if the alternative wasn't such a state of dismissal. "You throw like a girl", "Line up ladies!", "Grow a pair of balls", etc. So what if you don't? Why is it so bad to not be a man? I've done okay without growing a pair AND I throw like a girl. So what?

    The horrific bullying that men do to each other is the result of bullying women. They use the same tactics to create internal hierarchies that establish dominant traits that ostracize the alternative group. The psychological result can actually be worse for sensitive guys than it is for the average women - possibly. I HATE every aspect of male dominance of this form.

    Disclaimer: I have my filters down after a glass of wine, but if I could get breast implants that shoot lasers, I would first aim for these bullying men and take out every one of them. I'd start with the arrogant, privileged football players and move on to the toothless good ol' boy hicks.
    Why lasers in the form of breast implants? Some kind of dastardly trap?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #22

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    Be a man, means 'be strong' to me. That seems a much better phrase too. There is as much need to help kids become strong as acknowledging weakness. Vulnerability, sensitivity is not weakness. Wallowing and self pity are.

  3. #23
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Why lasers in the form of breast implants? Some kind of dastardly trap?
    A dastardly trap indeed! Also, it shows there are some rather impressive options to "growing a pair" worth fearing.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #24
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    We're at an odd point insofar as gender roles go for both sexes. The literature points to negative stereotypes as a major factor in underperformance of elementary schoolboys relative to their female peers. I wonder how the messages that the documentary touches on plays a role in that?

    I think the most difficult message that men receive, apparently from the time that they're quite young, is this idea that ultimately they're going to have to be providers in order to be considered real men. The same choices that are socially acceptable for women aren't there for them, and the effect of that can be crushing. I think about the men of my generation, and wonder if they looked at their fathers and decided they weren't going out like that.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  5. #25
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    I agree with you guys here.

    I basically have had a hand in raising my 10 year old cousin.

    I tell him to "man up" or "be a man" when it comes to things like telling the truth, being honest, respecting other people. I see my other two brothers telling him to "man up" in all the wrong ways. I've actually sat him down and told him not to listen to them, that being "mean and tough" doesn't make a man.

    I'm his favorite cousin.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Fun in the Sun's Avatar
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    This is a tough one. It really is. On the one hand, men are looked up to be strong and courageous during a crisis and it takes a certain mentality to be able to face dangers most people would really run from. We need people in society that are able and willing to do that. But, on the other hand, not all men are cut out for it and they should be respected for what they do have to offer society. There are also a lot of women that can outman many men and that should also be respected. I feel bad for the men and women on the margin that endure harassment because they are a little different from the rest.

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Did you read some of the comments on that video? Wow....it's pathetic to read.
    Looking them over, it's quite interesting how the people who are harshly criticizing the trailer express: Sexism, homophobia, anti-semitism, nationalism, militarism, right-wing or at least anti-left-wing ideology, and xenophobia or jingoism. It's funny how reliably those things go together.

    They do serve to validate the documentary, however.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #28
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The horrific bullying that men do to each other is the result of bullying women. They use the same tactics to create internal hierarchies that establish dominant traits that ostracize the alternative group. The psychological result can actually be worse for sensitive guys than it is for the average women - possibly. I HATE every aspect of male dominance of this form.
    I dunno, I think it's more a case of people being shamed for deviating from their gender norms. At least, I don't see how this type of bullying is unique to men.

    For instance, I don't see how the "be a man" treatment is all that different than when women say: real woman have curves! Real women this, real women that, etc. This presumably ostracizes women who don't fit this criteria of a "Real Woman" Also, one of the meaner insults you can make about a woman is that she looks like a man. If a woman belches, and scratches her crotch in public, people dismissively say she's acting like a dude.

    Furthermore, I don't see how the "man up" concept is limited to men saying it to other men. Women say "be a man" as well. I'm often told to "grow a pair", "man up", etc, from women. One time, a bunch of girls at my work were talking about how weird guys are, and I said: Well, you don't know what it's like to be a guy. One of them quipped back: Neither do you! and they all burst into giggles. I'm not especially effeminate, but I'm often out of step with "normal" male behaviour, so therefore these women seem to think that makes me less of a man.

    Women shaming guys for non-masculine behaviour is nothing new, either. Historically, women would shame men who chose not to go to war. In Britain during WWI, it was common practice for women to give white feathers (symbolizing cowardice) to men who were suspected of dodging military service. This wasn't just traditional or less educated women who did this either. Prominent feminists and suffragettes like Emmeline Pankhurst supported this practice, and also lobbied for an involuntary draft of men.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think women are worse than men when it comes to this behaviour. Men are the worst perpetrators of those "man-up" sort of statements. I just chafed a little at the way you framed the issue as:

    The horrific bullying that men do to each other is the result of bullying women.
    I dunno if I buy that, based on what I read in your post, at least.

    I do like your laser-boob proposal, though.

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    So we have praise put on ways of being that deny both success and the self. I'll list a few initial thoughts to maybe get things started.
    Do not be afraid or uncertain.
    Uncertainly is necessary for education and learning. We must recognize a position of uncertainty, of ignorance or inability, to agree that we need to learn as thus act on such agreement. Fear is inevitable and denial of fear will only make us behave in irrational ways, most likely directing our fear into irrational anger. "Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway." John Wayne - A better example of how a man or a woman should relate to fear.
    Do not feel or express emotion.
    More than anything this has an effect on life satisfaction and happiness. One needs to be able to be capable of feeling and sentiment to enjoy life's pleasures. Perhaps a lack of feeling and expression of such can aid in career success but...to what end? What is the point of having wealth or status if you can't enjoy it? Of course, society doesn't care if this is the case. It is more beneficial for society that they have their worker bees.
    Always be in control
    Either in control of oneself or others. Obviously, this is a good way to sabotage team work. It also turns any potentially nurturing relationships into dominance struggles. One in which not the strongest or most capable prevail, but the most ruthless and dishonest.
    These represent only the extremes of otherwise productive rules of thumb:

    1. Do not let yourself be paralyzed by fear or uncertainty.

    2. Do not let emotions control you - whether yours or others - use them constructively.

    3. Always be in control of yourself, and allow others the same freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Nothing wrong with being told to "be a man." It's a matter of what "being a man" entails and the context.
    Unless you are a woman. Then you learn to equate positive traits like responsibility, persistence, and maturity with being male. This is partly because there is no corresponding slogan directed at women to encourage the same positive qualities. Thursday has it right below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
    Be an adult is more healthy....when they get that age/responsibility.
    Or put another way, grow up.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #30
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    These represent only the extremes of otherwise productive rules of thumb:

    1. Do not let yourself be paralyzed by fear or uncertainty.

    2. Do not let emotions control you - whether yours or others - use them constructively.

    3. Always be in control of yourself, and allow others the same freedom.
    Agreed. I did say that our ideal person of either gender should draw from both masculine and feminine areas. The fault in the common use of such terms as "be a man", "grow a pair" or "don't be a pussy" is that they encourage exaggerated masculinity. Exaggerated masculinity being your 3 very reasonable and healthy rules of thumb taken to a unfortunate degree. Perhaps then I blame the process rather than the goal here. Who wouldn't want men to possess those three traits? It is the process that is clumsy because it shames a lack of masculinity, thus causing unhealthy exaggeration to compensate, as well as puts praise on masculinity in itself as good, rather than something dependent on context for its utility. KEep in mind I do not actually agree with the assertion given in the thread title as I'm sure there exist plenty of instances of "be a man" used to good.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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