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  1. #21
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    Yes, life is cause and effect.

    But then the world is at random, and free choice doesn't really exist.
    That is your perspective of course...

    I am not saying that external or inherent factors don't influence our opportunities, but it IS possible to impact ones circumstances in some way by making the decision to do so and taking informed steps to action. Of course it's possible. I've seen it with my own eyes countless times.

    But if you don't believe in free will then there's not really any point in continuing this discussion, since we are operating under different assumptions.......
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  2. #22
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    OP and related posts.. I recognize this sentiment, mostly when I was a parent with a million responsibilities. The ever-green adolescence on the other side looked great and I resented it, but of course I wouldn't admit it to myself, and I have very Mid-western sensibilities about making myself useful.

    Now, family life is not an option for me, and I need to do *something* with my time. I don't take elaborately staged silly pictures and post them on FB, but why not? I do substantial things, too, but... fun is fun.

  3. #23
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    That is your perspective of course...

    I am not saying that external or inherent factors don't influence our opportunities, but it IS possible to impact ones circumstances in some way by making the decision to do so and taking informed steps to action. Of course it's possible. I've seen it with my own eyes countless times.

    But if you don't believe in free will then there's not really any point in continuing this discussion, since we are operating under different assumptions.......
    I do believe in it. However, due to cause and effect I don't believe we hold absolute free will.

  4. #24
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    It seems like people are focusing more on the idea of judging others for immaturity (and whether that's valid or not), rather than on the original question that brings up issues about the finiteness of the human lifespan, and how pretending that it is infinite can do harm.

    I'm all for people pursuing what interests them, and making their own life choices. Still, since our lifespan is finite, doing something now means not doing something else. So, it benefits folks to be mindful when they put off careers, commitment, schooling, etc that they are making a trade-off.

    That trade-off may indeed be worthwhile (and I honestly believe it is, in many cases), but it's helpful to realize the potential ramifications of the choices one makes.. so that one choses, rather than drifting along until the decision has been made for one.

    I think part of maturity is owning both the choices and the ramifications. I think other aspects of maturity are open to debate. For some, maturity can be shrugging off an overly tight straight-jacket of "shoulds" and allowing oneself to play and enjoy the present. For others it may be saying "yes" to responsibilities and commitments.

    For some maturity may mean taking a step back and introspecting. For others it may mean stepping out more and deliberating less. It just depends.

    I don't think maturity has to be dull and boring, though. True maturity makes room for play and pleasure, but not at the expense of depth and joy.

  5. #25
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think it can have an impact on population. After a certain age, the longer you wait to have children the higher the odds you won't be able to conceive. And, of course not having children at all. Globally, we have too many people but some countries are falling below replacement levels and that can cause problems.

    Myself, I prefer to be as irresponsible and immature as I can without falling into a situation where other people can tell me how to run my life. Always assuming that I'm taking reasonably adequate care of my children and pets and being a fair partner to my spouse. But that is what maturity and responsibility is to me: meeting your obligations and fulfilling legitimate responsibilities. Sometimes that means not taking on stuff you're not ready for. Sometimes that means putting on your big kid pants and taking care of stuff you are responsible for whether you wanted it or not.

    Right now, the economy makes it difficult for young adults to become self-sufficient and independent, even if they want to, so the culture has kind of adapted to accommodate that.

    There are pros and cons. When I see people my age (40s) with young children, that is when I think "Oh hell no! I am too old for that shit!" I did that in my twenties and thirties. Now they are all fifteen and older and I'm down to mostly being a taxi service. I love it. Not that it wasn't hard in my twenties. But I had more energy then. I pretty much get to goof around as much as I want now.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #26
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    No, I just think s/he can do as s/he pleases, it's a free world. your judgmental attitude in spite of that. there are no rules in life, as everybody knows. just seems you envy that person, it shows in your post.
    Inferior Fe much?

    I DO envy the FB post of another friend who's in the Caribbean atm though ...

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I like that ^ article... it is neutral and exploratory...

    I am in a lifespan development class right now and I'm going to grab my textbook and copy here what it has to say - @PeaceBaby I think it has some good info to mull on -
    Yes, I liked that one too, and thanks for what you've posted here, especially the stats of "1 in 4" following the "sequence" - I'm soaking in tons of new data on this idea/phenomenon today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    It seems like people are focusing more on the idea of judging others for immaturity (and whether that's valid or not), rather than on the original question that brings up issues about the finiteness of the human lifespan, and how pretending that it is infinite can do harm.
    Yes, thank you for seeing clearly that I am not judging this person in any way. Her posts, to me, consistently read like those of a younger person. So I want to explore that, this sense of somehow not advancing along a path, or if there is a path, or what the idea of a path even means anymore. What ramifications follow.

    I'm all for people pursuing what interests them, and making their own life choices. Still, since our lifespan is finite, doing something now means not doing something else. So, it benefits folks to be mindful when they put off careers, commitment, schooling, etc that they are making a trade-off.
    Agreed. I'm not sure when you're in your twenties / early thirties that this is easy to see. It's easier to see when you have kids because the aging of your children helps mark the time more visibly. All of a sudden, it seems your kids are young adults too. It provides a certain perspective.

    I think part of maturity is owning both the choices and the ramifications. I think other aspects of maturity are open to debate. For some, maturity can be shrugging off an overly tight straight-jacket of "shoulds" and allowing oneself to play and enjoy the present. For others it may be saying "yes" to responsibilities and commitments. For some maturity may mean taking a step back and introspecting. For others it may mean stepping out more and deliberating less. It just depends.
    Agreed - well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think it can have an impact on population. After a certain age, the longer you wait to have children the higher the odds you won't be able to conceive. And, of course not having children at all. Globally, we have too many people but some countries are falling below replacement levels and that can cause problems.
    Indeed - I recall reading that at age 30 your fertility has declined by 20% and just 10 years beyond that, you're entering risky times to attempt conception. lol my Dr. said to me last week, as I was lamenting this new time of change for me, that my body will soon shut down my ability to create life because it's not safe for me to do that anymore. Interesting way of saying it, eh?

    There are pros and cons.
    Agreed. Fundamentally, this is the bottom-line answer of course.

    When I see people my age (40s) with young children, that is when I think "Oh hell no! I am too old for that shit!" I did that in my twenties and thirties. Now they are all fifteen and older and I'm down to mostly being a taxi service. I love it. Not that it wasn't hard in my twenties. But I had more energy then. I pretty much get to goof around as much as I want now.
    Yep, I say the same thing, and I had more energy then too, although I certainly felt tired all the time!

    A woman at our church just had her first baby at 40. My kids are now 24 and 22. I cannot imagine having a baby now and starting that whole journey at this point in time.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  7. #27
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I suppose adulthood is being framed in terms of how much serious responsibility a person has taken on by the expected age to do so. But I agree that I don't think this is really about maturity. You can be married with 3 kids & owning a house with a career by 30 and not be emotionally mature. Being able to juggle tasks is not being an "adult", IMO. I think people assume there's a selflessness in that whereas doing pleasant things must be selfish. However, I think it's more about understanding what you need (beyond immediate gratification) & how you can contribute positively to the world that is maturity, and of course that means different things for different people. I think being an adult is being a higher-functioning person than a teenager.

    I will joke that I am a perpetual teenager though. I probably dress like I'm in college still and my weaknesses include poor time management and not caring for practical tasks well, which may make me seem like I'm immature or irresponsible. But I'll talk with people older than me and will be told I am wise for my age, that I have an insight into things most my age do not. I also will prioritize better than some - my spirituality is before my income. This again may give the appearance of not being grown up, as I'm not pursuing external markers of adulthood (owning lots of "stuff"). Choosing not to be bogged down is not about evading responsibility for me though, and I feel my reasons are a sign of maturity, not a lack of it.

    I think older generations also don't have a full grasp of what it's like to be a young adult in this economy. People in their 20s aren't getting married & buying homes because they can't get work. Or they also look at the older generations and see a bunch of fat, divorced, unhappy people on meds and wonder why in the world they should follow their life path. It's hard to convince you to sacrifice your youth to a career or starting a family when you see end results like that, even if there are aspects of career and family which are appealing. Counting the cost of things or not diving into situations until you understand the scope of them is mature too.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #28
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I think I never grew up.

  9. #29
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Maturity is an illusion anyhow.

    The characteristics of maturity usually, despite dictionary definitions, manifest as a rough common consensus to do what is deemed most socially sensible at a given time.

    Unfortunately like any common consensus it is usually used to reign others in and pass judgement.

    I don't think people really mature at all, they just learn to adopt characteristics that appear to be so and pass scrutiny. In any case, people still have a lot of baggage up in their brains that will continue to haunt them from child to pensioner.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

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    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  10. #30
    Step into my office. Luv Deluxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What are the commonalities though of maturity - are there any anymore? Is it about a level of commitment? Or non-commitment? Or commitment to self?
    If I had to theorize what (if any) traits might point to this generalized idea of maturity, my checklist would include items like open-mindedness, patience, tolerance, acceptance, respect for others, and a healthy measure of self-confidence.

    "Commitment" is a word I dislike almost automatically, because too often I find it applied to people like me by those with a more family-oriented mindset, and it's usually pertaining to my decision to remain, for now, single and child-free. I really do not believe one's capacity or desire to commit to relationships, advancing through the reproductive/romantic stages of life as our culture trains us to do, has much bearing on one's volume of maturity.

    I find that it can be more potentially negative when these issues are centered upon career instability, but it often seems that deeper problems are usually at work in cases such as those, and I've already covered that in my first post.

    So, knowing that I have something of a personal bias against the term, would you describe to what degree you'd link the concepts of commitment and maturity? What relationship do those ideas have, in your opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    You do recognize though that the reason you think it is awesome is because of your cultural context? The cultural significance we currently place on the expression and manifestation of individualism? Just like if/when I make it to 90 there will be a lot of people listening to 80's music, if/when you make it to 90, there will be I guess a whole bunch of geriatric people with raspberry red hair.

    Everything becomes an anachronism at some point.
    I know what you're trying to say, and with regard to cultural phenomena at large, I would like to agree with you. Let's consider music, for example. There was a time when Rob Zombie and Marilyn Manson were staples of counterculture rock for the (arguably) goth crowd, but as these artists have aged, so has their fan base. What was once (arguably!) rebellious is now merely a potential indicator of generation.

    With regard to the particular example I gave of myself as an individual, however, I'm going to have to disagree. The reason I think my hair color is awesome has zero to do with cultural context and everything to do with the fact that it looks damn good with my complexion. (If you imagined a primary, rock star red - it's not.) Anyway, my point there was that as people age, they tend to make subtle adjustments to their appearance to look more "age appropriate," to not stick out like sore thumbs. It would probably look a bit strange for a 90-year-old woman to wear the dark red hair she wore when she was 25, but since I've come to think of it as being so very me, I wouldn't put it past myself to just go for it. Some might view this position as a marker of immaturity; I would argue that it's simply a comfort in my own skin.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    I find this fascinating. What does it look like when someone lets go of their inner child? Do they stop making cookies? Are those the things we are supposed to be doing to nurture that inner child? Why those things?
    I cited those things because you expressed surprise that one could take such delight in doing those specific things at age thirty.

    That's a good place to start, though. I think a key element of retaining the inner child comes from taking delight in the seemingly small stuff. It's easy, as a busy adult, to let stress and scheduling dominate one's life - but it doesn't have to be this way all the time.

    The adult bakes cookies because his kids needs to bring said cookies to the 4th grade Christmas party, but his inner child has a blast doing it because he's making a delicious treat, he can be creative while decorating them, and he gets to spend time with his kids on this project. The adult has a chore; the inner child has fun.

    When people let go of the inner child, they adopt a certain seriousness that becomes hard to penetrate. Life becomes a string of shoulds and supposed-tos, while spontaneity and creativity often suffer. It's depressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    Thanks for helping me explore more!
    No problem, happy to share my input.
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