User Tag List

First 12

Results 11 to 19 of 19

  1. #11
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That article seems pretty accurate to me though I disagree with the tagline of the thread. I have long thought that people who were abused themselves - physically, emotionally, psychologically, sexually - are the ones that tend to abuse others. That bully on the playground is probably being bullied at home. Not everyone reacts to situations in the same way though and the fact that you were abused as a child doesn't mean you will abuse others though it does make it more likely. A person I went to grade school with has made this her life's work - to combat these issues. It's a dangerous cycle with extremely harmful consequences, as described here, being passed down from one generation to the next.

    It's a sad thing that those who were once bullied themselves and harmed by it, bully others and are blind to the hurt and damage their behavior causes others. I am not convinced that all bullies are narcissists because I have known at least one person who suffered from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and there was a whole other set of things going on with that person. There is a difference between NPD and lacking empathy for those that you harm.

    This article has some interesting perspectives on the topic.


    The thing about that author- Joseph Burgo (I've read a lot of his work and read his blog regularly)- when he uses the word 'narcissist', he's not necessarily referring to a condition that would qualify for a full on NPD diagnosis (which doesn't exist anymore anyway with the latest DSM, I believe). I can't find the exact link right now (in which he gives a full definition of what he means by 'narcissist')- but basically, to him, narcissism is a coping mechanism for people who can't handle feeling shame. It's like being in denial, needing to posit 'inferiority' in other people to feel relief from the fear that we are inferior ourselves- and being so preoccupied with that fear that it blocks our empathy, we don't care we are making someone else feel bad in order to feel better ourselves. And I agree that it's at the core of bullying.

    But there are times when it seems to me that Burgo has appropriated these terms to explain things in a way that's rather inconvenient- because many people already have a working definition in their head (of 'narcissism' and 'shame') that don't especially coincide with the way he uses them. [So in that sense, I can see your point....if your own working definition of 'narcissism' clashes with the specific way he's using it.]

    eta: According to Burgo, narcissism (as a coping mechanism) is the result of early emotional abuse, so this coincides somewhat with what you said instead contradicting it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #12
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The thing about that author- Joseph Burgo (I've read a lot of his work and read his blog regularly)- when he uses the word 'narcissist', he's not necessarily referring to a condition that would qualify for a full on NPD diagnosis (which doesn't exist anymore anyway with the latest DSM, I believe). I can't find the exact link right now (in which he gives a full definition of what he means by 'narcissist')- but basically, to him, narcissism is a coping mechanism for people who can't handle feeling shame. It's like being in denial, needing to posit 'inferiority' in other people to feel relief from the fear that we are inferior ourselves- and being so preoccupied with that fear that it blocks our empathy, we don't care we are making someone else feel bad in order to feel better ourselves. And I agree that it's at the core of bullying.

    But there are times when it seems to me that Burgo has appropriated these terms to explain things in a way that's rather inconvenient- because many people already have a working definition in their head (of 'narcissism' and 'shame') that don't especially coincide with the way he uses them. [So in that sense, I can see your point....if your own working definition of 'narcissism' clashes with the specific way he's using it.]

    eta: According to Burgo, narcissism (as a coping mechanism) is the result of early emotional abuse, so this coincides somewhat with what you said instead contradicting it.
    That's interesting. The person I am thinking of that appeared to demonstrate NDP had these types of characteristics.

    - Very intelligent
    - Outwardly charming and charismatic; very social
    - Expecting admiration and positive reinforcement from others
    - Inability to accept criticism and failure to take any blame for own circumstances; everything was somebody else's fault; nothing was ever this person's fault
    - Difficulty getting along with others after a period of time
    - Highly critical of others while having an aggrandized self image that was disconnected from reality
    - Lack of empathy for others - extreme focus on self

    I didn't exactly think this person was a bully though they were quite capable of turning on others that did not support their self image.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  3. #13
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,964

    Default

    I'm sick of everyone taking away my right to be a bully. I just want to cyberbully some teens and eat gluten, let me live people.

  4. #14
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    PORG
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That article seems pretty accurate to me though I disagree with the tagline of the thread. I have long thought that people who were abused themselves - physically, emotionally, psychologically, sexually - are the ones that tend to abuse others. That bully on the playground is probably being bullied at home. Not everyone reacts to situations in the same way though and the fact that you were abused as a child doesn't mean you will abuse others though it does make it more likely. A person I went to grade school with has made this her life's work - to combat these issues. It's a dangerous cycle with extremely harmful consequences, as described here, being passed down from one generation to the next.

    It's a sad thing that those who were once bullied themselves and harmed by it, bully others and are blind to the hurt and damage their behavior causes others. I am not convinced that all bullies are narcissists because I have known at least one person who suffered from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and there was a whole other set of things going on with that person. There is a difference between NPD and lacking empathy for those that you harm.

    This article has some interesting perspectives on the topic.
    Interesting stuff. This stood out in particular:


    Even if you are not a target, the behavior of a bully seems to permeate the entire atmosphere of an organization, especially if it is disregarded or goes unrecognized by those who have the authority to control it.
    This makes me wonder what options are available to curb bullying behavior in the absence of authority.

    It also says in the article that they may not necessarily have NPD.

    They can mistreat you and yet charm others who either fail to recognize their manipulative and denigrating behavior or who choose to ignore it out of their own need for acceptance or experience of helplessness.
    This is also an issue, and is the issue where it becomes especially problematic. A bully by himself or herself, who is condemned by a community, has much less power than one that is accepted by a community. Thus, we see here how laid-back environments can sometimes encourage bullying.

    It's also goes into my general theory that if more people worked on self-improvement, the world would be a better place. The word "self" has kind of a negative connotation these days for many people, but if more people tried to do this, it would be harder for others to "use" them.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  5. #15
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    - Very intelligent
    - Outwardly charming and charismatic; very social
    - Expecting admiration and positive reinforcement from others
    - Inability to accept criticism and failure to take any blame for own circumstances; everything was somebody else's fault; nothing was ever this person's fault
    - Difficulty getting along with others after a period of time
    - Highly critical of others while having an aggrandized self image that was disconnected from reality
    - Lack of empathy for others - extreme focus on self
    Yes, Burgo would consider this narcissism as well- but it’d be like a certain subset of narcissistic behaviors? Much in the way that “crimson” is a hue that falls under the umbrella of “red”: ‘crimson’ is always red, but that does not mean that anything red is also ‘crimson’. Those behaviors listed above are ‘narcissistic’, but not all narcissism can be described with those behaviors.

    I’m not willing to type out his book description right now- maybe I’ll find a good blog entry description later to post. In short- there’s a phase in childhood (the narcissistic phase) that everyone goes through. Some people don’t leave that phase with an adequate sense of self- because they didn’t have a caregiver who could adequately mirror/empathize with them- and their ability to empathize with others is stunted because they never passed through that phase of development. In short- the inability to empathize because of abuse/neglect during this phase of development all falls under the umbrella of ‘narcissism’.

    So overt bullying does qualify- it just isn’t what usually comes to mind when one thinks ‘narcissist’. Most narcissists revert to manipulation over and above overt bullying to meet their ego needs. In fact, overt bullying kinda works against it- because their methods of dumping ‘shame’ onto others necessarily need to be more clandestine than overt bullying in order to be effective.

    /might not be explaining it very well, and anyway, doesn’t mean to sound like some expert
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  6. #16
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    i think the theory is that bad attachment leads to a negative self image (a sense of feeling flawed and worthless/unlovable; shame). One way to cope with a negative self image is by trying to build (contingent) self-esteem externally. That means one desperately needs positive external feedback to counteract the negative internal voices (the pervasive sense of shame). However, such self-esteem is contingent on positive feedback, including feeling superior to others. When such positive feedback isn't forthcoming, one way to produce it is to feel superior to someone else by bullying them and running them down, thereby showing one's dominance and superiority.

    I think it's possible to bully without being a narcissist (in the diagnostic sense), but it's certainly a narcissist approach to building a sense of self-worth. It depends on treating others as lessor in order to build one's own self image.

  7. #17
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    PORG
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,059

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post

    So overt bullying does qualify- it just isn’t what usually comes to mind when one thinks ‘narcissist’. Most narcissists revert to manipulation over and above overt bullying to meet their ego needs. In fact, overt bullying kinda works against it- because their methods of dumping ‘shame’ onto others necessarily need to be more clandestine than overt bullying in order to be effective.

    /might not be explaining it very well, and anyway, doesn’t mean to sound like some expert

    Trying to pick at someone's weaknesses and get under their skin, for no other reason than to feel superior, though, that's overt bullying, isn't it? It doesn't really seem like manipulation at all. I'm not sure that manipulation is really associated with trying to shame people at all. Manipulation is the attempt to influence the behavior of others through indirect means, in the hope that the other person won't be aware of it.

    You're saying that his definition of narcissist doesn't meet the diagnostic criteria, and that narcissists are not likely to be true bullies, correct?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  8. #18
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    You're saying that his definition of narcissist doesn't meet the diagnostic criteria, and that narcissists are not likely to be true bullies, correct?
    Actually, the bullet points highlander posted are pretty much exactly the criteria of 'diagnosable' narcissism (as I understand it). :/ "You know you're bad at articulating thoughts when..." I was trying to explain how Burgo's use of the term "narcissism" stretches a bit beyond that which highlander described. Seymour did a better job than I did- it's about attachment not being made during the narcissistic phase.

    And the point I was trying to make about narcissists and overt bullying is that a lot of narcissists wouldn't actually consider themselves bullies. They're still very much 'true bullies' (if my understanding of what you mean by this is correct)- they just don't seen themselves that way. They're so good at twisting the truth around (and wholly believing the 'truth' they come up with) that they don't realize they're positing themselves in a superior position....they think they're just 'pointing out the truth'. Some of them are actually exceptional masterminds at becoming 'victims' in order to control what others are doing, thinking or feeling- and they actually feel like the victim while they're emotionally bullying others.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Trying to pick at someone's weaknesses and get under their skin, for no other reason than to feel superior, though, that's overt bullying, isn't it? It doesn't really seem like manipulation at all. I'm not sure that manipulation is really associated with trying to shame people at all. Manipulation is the attempt to influence the behavior of others through indirect means, in the hope that the other person won't be aware of it.
    It isn't always to get under someone else's skin or to 'shame' them- the (relatively) unconscious goal of the narcissist is to purge unwanted feelings of shame and to feel superior to others. Sometimes this is done through 'shaming' and humiliation, sometimes it's a much more subtle positing of the notion that one is superior.

    This is deviating somewhat from the point of the op, somewhat, probably- because I think the op is putting forth the premise that all overt bullying is narcissm. But my point in going on the side tangent was to explain how (according to Burgo, guy who wrote the article you linked) 'narcissistic wounds' are at the core: when a person's narcissistic phase of development is stunted, then other people (in varying degrees) are just objects that either make us feel good or make us feel bad, empathy never properly develops. Overt bullying is one of the products of this kind of stunting.

    [Again- I do not claim to be any kind of expert, I'm just trying to paraphrase that which I've read on the subject.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  9. #19
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    I'm sick of everyone taking away my right to be a bully. I just want to cyberbully some teens and eat gluten, let me live people.

Similar Threads

  1. Cognitive functions and narcissism
    By Julius_Van_Der_Beak in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 05-10-2013, 12:24 PM
  2. Replies: 43
    Last Post: 05-05-2010, 01:02 PM
  3. What's the difference between healthy self-esteem and narcissism?
    By proteanmix in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 06-25-2009, 04:40 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO