Anger and guilt

[highlander]

umm is that avatar really you? Very high on the hotness meter.

No it's not me. That's the highlander, Adrian Paul.

 

[AzulEyes]

No it's not me. That's the highlander, Adrian Paul.

Ohhhhh. Well highlander = hot. And Azul = always out of touch with pop culture. lol

 

[Kasper]

Don't a lot of people with "anger management issues" have some sort of baseline "entitlement" issue? It's MY RIGHT to be in charge of you---- or this outcome ----- How dare someone do it their way---- when it's supposed to be MY WAY!

The anger types, 8-9-1, show three distinct types of anger, what you mention there is more stereotypical of how an 8 can seem, don't be fooled into thinking 9s and 1s don't have just as much of a problem with it.

9s are like this. Anger? What anger? It's there under the surface - subconscious but not expressed.

YOU DON'T KNOW ME, MAN!! mutterfasdfasceeygrrrrrflpt

 

[Haven]

[MENTION=4660]msg_v2[/MENTION]

I already tried overcoming laziness with a combination of rage, anxiety, and industrial music and it seemed to work for a while, but I think I created a lot more problems for myself. I don't suggest you try it because panic attacks suck. Don't be mad at yourself for being lazy, it just creates a vicious cycle within yourself.

 

[AzulEyes]

The anger types, 8-9-1, show three distinct types of anger, what you mention there is more stereotypical of how an 8 can seem, don't be fooled into thinking 9s and 1s don't have just as much of a problem with it.




YOU DON'T KNOW ME, MAN!! mutterfasdfasceeygrrrrrflpt

I know an 8 that seems like a puppy dog but when enraged, I seriously wonder if he could kill.

 

[Udog]

9s are like this. Anger? What anger? It's there under the surface - subconscious but not expressed.

And it's annoying, too. Maybe a month or two ago I was just roaming around the house, mind on cooking my dinner, when I suddenly shouted something like "God fucking damnit!!" and slammed my fist against the countertop. Where did that come from?! Surprised the living spitfire out of me.

 

[Kasper]

I know an 8 that seems like a puppy dog but when enraged, I seriously wonder if he could kill.

XD I am a puppy dog according to those around me, but when the ever present anger turns into rage, I seriously wonder if I could kill... no one around me would ever see that

Point is, anger is a central theme in my emotions so 'anger management issues' are something I have to constantly work on (starting with actually noticing my anger when it first rises), however I do not show my rage to people unfiltered or even at all, therefore you would probably consider me someone who isn't angry and doesn't need to manage it if you met me, my anger isn't about pushing people into doing what I want or feeling entitled.

I would say you hit with this:

I think most anger is actually frustration.
Frustration for not being heard.
Frustration for things not going your way.
Frustration for not "winning" the argument.

Not feeling like you're being heard, or feeling ignored, would be a common cause of 9 anger.
Not feeling like things are going the way they should, which would be their way, would be a common cause of 1 anger.
And not feeling like they're winning the argument would be a common cause of 8 anger (also feeling like they're dealing with incompetency in others).

But consider the difference between depression and rage, both can be a form of anger, one internal the other external and the things mentioned in the OP could easily lead to anger, they're just more likely to come from a core heart or head type imo, or be indirect triggers of anger.

 

[Qlip]

I feel very little guilt, or maybe I just feel anger transmogrified. The more I think of the connection, the more fuzzy it gets, that's my 'Turn Back Now' sign.

 

[AzulEyes]

XD I am a puppy dog according to those around me, but when the ever present anger turns into rage, I seriously wonder if I could kill... no one around me would ever see that

Point is, anger is a central theme in my emotions so 'anger management issues' are something I have to constantly work on (starting with actually noticing my anger when it first rises), however I do not show my rage to people unfiltered or even at all, therefore you would probably consider me someone who isn't angry and doesn't need to manage it if you met me, my anger isn't about pushing people into doing what I want or feeling entitled.

I would say you hit with this:



Not feeling like you're being heard, or feeling ignored, would be a common cause of 9 anger.
Not feeling like things are going the way they should, which would be their way, would be a common cause of 1 anger.
And not feeling like they're winning the argument would be a common cause of 8 anger (also feeling like they're dealing with incompetency in others).

But consider the difference between depression and rage, both can be a form of anger, one internal the other external and the things mentioned in the OP could easily lead to anger, they're just more likely to come from a core heart or head type imo, or be indirect triggers of anger.

I grew up with an angry parent. One who could be sweet as pie and then fly into a major and scary rage. Never hurt anyone but words can hurt for sure.

Anyway- I mirrored this behavior and then decided to fix it. I just didn't want to live like that but mostly- I didn't want to alienate people. Because that is what that behavior started to do for me. I love my life now- years and years with anger in check. I CAN fly off the handle occassionally, but I quickly recover. I apologize if I crossed the line and I move on and try to get away from the situation and brew alone- so I don't hurt anyone with my words.

I really think that it's something we can decide to change. If it's something that makes you uncomfortable or causes you to miss out on things in life (ie. a better relationship with someone - or with people in your life, makes you feel bad etc.) then it is hindering you not helping you.

For me- when I feel like I am missing something in life for no good reason, I actually GET ANGRY- I use the anger to my advantage and say, "Screw that! I will not allow anger to stop my happiness!" And that is powerful.

The world is made up ALL kinds of people! Competent, incompetent, those who view the world as you do, those who don't, bad people, good people, nice people, assholes. This is not something you or I can change. It is fact. So accepting people for who they are is a good first step. And then choosing how you react to people is next.

We cannot control what people say- or what people do. ONLY how we react to them. Will you allow an incompetent person or person not hearing you to make your emotions get the best of you - and throw you into a fit of anger?

Or will you say, "Screw that! I am choosing not to get angry over this person. They will not have that power over me. Period." And walk away.

 

[Kasper]

The world is made up ALL kinds of people! Competent, incompetent, those who view the world as you do, those who don't, bad people, good people, nice people, assholes. This is not something you or I can change. It is fact. So accepting people for who they are is a good first step. And then choosing how you react to people is next.

We cannot control what people say- or what people do. ONLY how we react to them. Will you allow an incompetent person or person not hearing you to make your emotions get the best of you - and throw you into a fit of anger?

Or will you say, "Screw that! I am choosing not to get angry over this person. They will not have that power over me. Period." And walk away.

Not what I was getting at. It's great that you've changed negative behaviour, kudos. However your advice on how to do that is applicable to you, and probably 8s, yet not to a 9 (is your gut fix 8?). I kinda don't think that non-gut types can understand what anger is to a gut type, and vice versa for anxiety and shame for the other types. I'm a 9 who is aware of his anger, acknowledges it when it rises, and works out what has caused it so I can do something about it, that right there is growth, however the fact of the matter is anger will always be an issue for me as a gut type just as anxiety will effect head types, it's about how we handle that.

For a 9 accepting that everyone for who they are is not a difficult thing, actually it's our default, and walking away from anger is also our default, both are things that can be very unhealthy and simply give rise to greater anger later so that is not the answer. The way I experience anger is not comparable to how a 1 or 8 experience it. Anger is different to everyone, and the causes matters.

 

[AzulEyes]

Not what I was getting at. It's great that you've changed negative behaviour, kudos. However your advice on how to do that is applicable to you, and probably 8s, yet not to a 9 (is your gut fix 8?). I kinda don't think that non-gut types can understand what anger is to a gut type, and vice versa for anxiety and shame for the other types. I'm a 9 who is aware of his anger, acknowledges it when it rises, and works out what has caused it so I can do something about it, that right there is growth, however the fact of the matter is anger will always be an issue for me as a gut type just as anxiety will effect head types, it's about how we handle that.

For a 9 accepting that everyone for who they are is not a difficult thing, actually it's our default, and walking away from anger is also our default, both are things that can be very unhealthy and simply give rise to greater anger later so that is not the answer. The way I experience anger is not comparable to how a 1 or 8 experience it. Anger is different to everyone, and the causes matters.

Okay- that is interesting. I do not know a lot about ennagram. I know I'm a 7- and I'm pretty confident about that. I didn't realize that it could be different for different people and manifest differently. But thanks for hearing me out any way. Perhaps my rant will help someone else who reads it.

 

[Kasper]

Okay- that is interesting. I do not know a lot about ennagram. I know I'm a 7- and I'm pretty confident about that. I didn't realize that it could be different for different people and manifest differently. But thanks for hearing me out any way. Perhaps my rant will help someone else who reads it.

I've expanded cause I felt like it

And I do see it as relevant to the OP now I've considered it, as in I see that as a connection to Enneagram 1. Gonna explain 9ness though cause it's what I know from living it...

9s are the type who have lost connection with Holy Love.

Holy Love is the idea that love is unconditional. For 9s we can see how that would be true for other people, however when it comes to ourselves we learnt early on that it was better to be who other people around us wanted us to be and believed that so long as we could do that we would be loved. We learnt to see things how everyone else around us did, we're great with understanding others because we really can see things from your point of view, we need to in order to know what will keep the peace and not break our connection with others. What we neglect when doing so is often our own point of view, so much of the time we simply don't hold one, it may conflict with yours, you may not like it and therefore you may not like us, we often see everyone else's pov as more valid than our own, partly because people tend to care about their opinions while we don't hold strongly to many views, remember, we see our being loved as conditional and as we want love as much as anyone we want to meet those conditions, having your own needs can hurt that.

When someone gets angry at us it threatens our belief we are lovable which is why 9s have such a hard time with conflict, we don't like it around us as it threatens our inner balance and "why can't everyone just see where everyone else is coming from, realise we're all the same at the end of the day, and just get along?!". And we sure don't like it directed towards us because there's no feeling connected when someone is angry at you.

So we dismiss ourselves, we fear conflict is a sign we are not lovable, and we see all points of view as valid in their own way… except ours.

The world doesn't operate that way though, so when a 9 dismisses their own needs in favour of someone around them they don't see it as us being giving and respond in kind, they either ignore it as whatever, maybe don't even notice, or see us as easy to take advantage of. Over time we start resenting how much we feel we give up to others without being taken into consideration in return, that grows our anger. Other people do not need to do a single thing for this to happen, as you can hopefully see, we do this to ourselves when we dismiss our own needs and value other peoples more.

So anger rises over feeling easy to be overlooked, invisible, unlovable, unappreciated. Then something (often stupid) triggers strong anger. For a w1 it can turn critical towards self and others, for a w8 it can turn into rage against the entire world, however because we are super with tuning out our own needs and ignoring them, the hardest thing for a 9 without exposure to Enneagram, is actually realising they are angry in the first place. We may tense our body, we may get frustrated over stupid things, we may withdraw within ourselves and say nothing, and yet without awareness of our issue with anger we may not connect those things to anger. Find me a 9 who has never claimed "I'm just not an angry person, I can count on one hand the amount of times I have been angry, just ask anyone who knows me" and odds are stacked high that would have found someone mistyped as a 9.

Problem with this anger is when it rises, our automatic reaction can be we have no right to be angry, we can see the other pov and easily excuse poor behaviour because we understand the motivations, so we push the anger down and do not allow it to be expressed, or if it does slip out it's a flash in the pan and we quickly move on without resolving. Ofc I'm talking about unhealthy behaviours here.

So for a 9 understanding our anger is about caring enough about ourselves to notice our needs so we can recognise when they are 'abused' and then take actions to get them looked after. It's about being willing to enter into conflict and risk losing a connection with someone because the alternative is not caring. It's about not valuing everyone else's needs as more important than our own. It's about not simply withdrawing when someone else does something that results in our feeling ignored.

These are not 8 or 1 issues.

Meanwhile, what the OP mentioned is very much something that I would link to how a 1 handles anger, the self-directed shame at not being good enough or doing what they should be doing. So I would suggest reading up on Enneagram 1 and anger.

What you have spoken of AzulEyes is more 8ish, however you seem to have found a healthy approach to it.

All different types of anger with different causes and therefore different answers for self-growth. I believe finding ones gut type/fix is very important when it comes to understanding your own relationship with anger.

 

[AzulEyes]

I've expanded cause I felt like it

And I do see it as relevant to the OP now I've considered it, as in I see that as a connection to Enneagram 1. Gonna explain 9ness though cause it's what I know from living it...

9s are the type who have lost connection with Holy Love.

Holy Love is the idea that love is unconditional. For 9s we can see how that would be true for other people, however when it comes to ourselves we learnt early on that it was better to be who other people around us wanted us to be and believed that so long as we could do that we would be loved. We learnt to see things how everyone else around us did, we're great with understanding others because we really can see things from your point of view, we need to in order to know what will keep the peace and not break our connection with others. What we neglect when doing so is often our own point of view, so much of the time we simply don't hold one, it may conflict with yours, you may not like it and therefore you may not like us, we often see everyone else's pov as more valid than our own, partly because people tend to care about their opinions while we don't hold strongly to many views, remember, we see our being loved as conditional and as we want love as much as anyone we want to meet those conditions, having your own needs can hurt that.

When someone gets angry at us it threatens our belief we are lovable which is why 9s have such a hard time with conflict, we don't like it around us as it threatens our inner balance and "why can't everyone just see where everyone else is coming from, realise we're all the same at the end of the day, and just get along?!". And we sure don't like it directed towards us because there's no feeling connected when someone is angry at you.

So we dismiss ourselves, we fear conflict is a sign we are not lovable, and we see all points of view as valid in their own way… except ours.

The world doesn't operate that way though, so when a 9 dismisses their own needs in favour of someone around them they don't see it as us being giving and respond in kind, they either ignore it as whatever, maybe don't even notice, or see us as easy to take advantage of. Over time we start resenting how much we feel we give up to others without being taken into consideration in return, that grows our anger. Other people do not need to do a single thing for this to happen, as you can hopefully see, we do this to ourselves when we dismiss our own needs and value other peoples more.

So anger rises over feeling easy to be overlooked, invisible, unlovable, unappreciated. Then something (often stupid) triggers strong anger. For a w1 it can turn critical towards self and others, for a w8 it can turn into rage against the entire world, however because we are super with tuning out our own needs and ignoring them, the hardest thing for a 9 without exposure to Enneagram, is actually realising they are angry in the first place. We may tense our body, we may get frustrated over stupid things, we may withdraw within ourselves and say nothing, and yet without awareness of our issue with anger we may not connect those things to anger. Find me a 9 who has never claimed "I'm just not an angry person, I can count on one hand the amount of times I have been angry, just ask anyone who knows me" and odds are stacked high that would have found someone mistyped as a 9.

Problem with this anger is when it rises, our automatic reaction can be we have no right to be angry, we can see the other pov and easily excuse poor behaviour because we understand the motivations, so we push the anger down and do not allow it to be expressed, or if it does slip out it's a flash in the pan and we quickly move on without resolving. Ofc I'm talking about unhealthy behaviours here.

So for a 9 understanding our anger is about caring enough about ourselves to notice our needs so we can recognise when they are 'abused' and then take actions to get them looked after. It's about being willing to enter into conflict and risk losing a connection with someone because the alternative is not caring. It's about not valuing everyone else's needs as more important than our own. It's about not simply withdrawing when someone else does something that results in our feeling ignored.

These are not 8 or 1 issues.

Meanwhile, what the OP mentioned is very much something that I would link to how a 1 handles anger, the self-directed shame at not being good enough or doing what they should be doing. So I would suggest reading up on Enneagram 1 and anger.

What you have spoken of AzulEyes is more 8ish, however you seem to have found a healthy approach to it.

All different types of anger with different causes and therefore different answers for self-growth. I believe finding ones gut type/fix is very important when it comes to understanding your own relationship with anger.

It sounds a lot like Fe- being in tune with others. I know ENTP has Fe as tertiary. Do you think 9 is found more with Fe doms or Fe users in general?

 

[Kasper]

It sounds a lot like Fe- being in tune with others. I know ENTP has Fe as tertiary. Do you think 9 is found more with Fe doms or Fe users in general?

E9 can be nearly any type in terms of frequent combinations, however it's actually most commonly seen with IxFP.

 

[uumlau]

It sounds a lot like Fe- being in tune with others. I know ENTP has Fe as tertiary. Do you think 9 is found more with Fe doms or Fe users in general?

Fi is more "being in tune with others". Fi listens. Fe is more about objectively figuring out how to get people to interact harmoniously. It's more about externalities than about being "in tune."

E9, as Kaspar mentioned, can be any type, as is the case for any of the Enneagram types, I believe.

 

[highlander]

The anger types, 8-9-1, show three distinct types of anger, what you mention there is more stereotypical of how an 8 can seem, don't be fooled into thinking 9s and 1s don't have just as much of a problem with it.




YOU DON'T KNOW ME, MAN!! mutterfasdfasceeygrrrrrflpt

Please explain. I am more than interested.

 

[AzulEyes]

Fi is more "being in tune with others". Fi listens. Fe is more about objectively figuring out how to get people to interact harmoniously. It's more about externalities than about being "in tune."

E9, as Kaspar mentioned, can be any type, as is the case for any of the Enneagram types, I believe.

This is literally the best explanation of Fi vs Fe in terms of interacting with people- that I've ever heard. Kudos INTJ!

 

[Kasper]

Please explain. I am more than interested.

I expanded above some.

For a 9 anger often shows up over feeling dismissed or mistreated, and is automatically repressed/ignored. When it does come out it is often triggered by indirect causes, things that wouldn't normally bother them become seen as the causes of their anger as the anger has been building for some time and found an easy target to focus on (ie cut off in traffic, no one can hear them swearing at the driver, or punching benches Udog style) the anger can be expressed in accordance with their wing, it's often not seen by others though, maybe felt in stubbornness or not even that if they just withdraw.

For a 1 the anger is critical both towards self and others and is going to often rise over things like seeing their own lack of perfection or being disappointed in circumstances, 1s don't tend to blow up in your face with rage it's more subtle and re-directed. An angry 1 is typically finding fault in those around them, and maybe telling them about that, as they are idealists anger can still be suppressed so only critical judgement is seen.

8 anger is what people typically think of with the word 'rage', they are the gut type that will freely express anger and aggression. Anger is power it stops fear and vulnerability, feels strong and without facade.

All are core anger types and need to find a way to deal with anger in a positive way, however each need to focus on different things.

 

[WALMART]

I've always thought of my guilt stemming from anger.

Constantly eroding my will to act.

 

[AzulEyes]

Anger vs rage. I know people that when in an emotionally unstable place, you can be like, "Hi. How ya' doin'?" And then wish you were dead cuz you see the devil himself in their eyes.