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Thread: Anger and guilt

  1. #31
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Not what I was getting at. It's great that you've changed negative behaviour, kudos. However your advice on how to do that is applicable to you, and probably 8s, yet not to a 9 (is your gut fix 8?). I kinda don't think that non-gut types can understand what anger is to a gut type, and vice versa for anxiety and shame for the other types. I'm a 9 who is aware of his anger, acknowledges it when it rises, and works out what has caused it so I can do something about it, that right there is growth, however the fact of the matter is anger will always be an issue for me as a gut type just as anxiety will effect head types, it's about how we handle that.

    For a 9 accepting that everyone for who they are is not a difficult thing, actually it's our default, and walking away from anger is also our default, both are things that can be very unhealthy and simply give rise to greater anger later so that is not the answer. The way I experience anger is not comparable to how a 1 or 8 experience it. Anger is different to everyone, and the causes matters.
    Okay- that is interesting. I do not know a lot about ennagram. I know I'm a 7- and I'm pretty confident about that. I didn't realize that it could be different for different people and manifest differently. But thanks for hearing me out any way. Perhaps my rant will help someone else who reads it.
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  2. #32
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    Okay- that is interesting. I do not know a lot about ennagram. I know I'm a 7- and I'm pretty confident about that. I didn't realize that it could be different for different people and manifest differently. But thanks for hearing me out any way. Perhaps my rant will help someone else who reads it.
    I've expanded cause I felt like it

    And I do see it as relevant to the OP now I've considered it, as in I see that as a connection to Enneagram 1. Gonna explain 9ness though cause it's what I know from living it...

    9s are the type who have lost connection with Holy Love.

    Holy Love is the idea that love is unconditional. For 9s we can see how that would be true for other people, however when it comes to ourselves we learnt early on that it was better to be who other people around us wanted us to be and believed that so long as we could do that we would be loved. We learnt to see things how everyone else around us did, we're great with understanding others because we really can see things from your point of view, we need to in order to know what will keep the peace and not break our connection with others. What we neglect when doing so is often our own point of view, so much of the time we simply don't hold one, it may conflict with yours, you may not like it and therefore you may not like us, we often see everyone else's pov as more valid than our own, partly because people tend to care about their opinions while we don't hold strongly to many views, remember, we see our being loved as conditional and as we want love as much as anyone we want to meet those conditions, having your own needs can hurt that.

    When someone gets angry at us it threatens our belief we are lovable which is why 9s have such a hard time with conflict, we don't like it around us as it threatens our inner balance and "why can't everyone just see where everyone else is coming from, realise we're all the same at the end of the day, and just get along?!". And we sure don't like it directed towards us because there's no feeling connected when someone is angry at you.

    So we dismiss ourselves, we fear conflict is a sign we are not lovable, and we see all points of view as valid in their own way… except ours.

    The world doesn't operate that way though, so when a 9 dismisses their own needs in favour of someone around them they don't see it as us being giving and respond in kind, they either ignore it as whatever, maybe don't even notice, or see us as easy to take advantage of. Over time we start resenting how much we feel we give up to others without being taken into consideration in return, that grows our anger. Other people do not need to do a single thing for this to happen, as you can hopefully see, we do this to ourselves when we dismiss our own needs and value other peoples more.

    So anger rises over feeling easy to be overlooked, invisible, unlovable, unappreciated. Then something (often stupid) triggers strong anger. For a w1 it can turn critical towards self and others, for a w8 it can turn into rage against the entire world, however because we are super with tuning out our own needs and ignoring them, the hardest thing for a 9 without exposure to Enneagram, is actually realising they are angry in the first place. We may tense our body, we may get frustrated over stupid things, we may withdraw within ourselves and say nothing, and yet without awareness of our issue with anger we may not connect those things to anger. Find me a 9 who has never claimed "I'm just not an angry person, I can count on one hand the amount of times I have been angry, just ask anyone who knows me" and odds are stacked high that would have found someone mistyped as a 9.

    Problem with this anger is when it rises, our automatic reaction can be we have no right to be angry, we can see the other pov and easily excuse poor behaviour because we understand the motivations, so we push the anger down and do not allow it to be expressed, or if it does slip out it's a flash in the pan and we quickly move on without resolving. Ofc I'm talking about unhealthy behaviours here.

    So for a 9 understanding our anger is about caring enough about ourselves to notice our needs so we can recognise when they are 'abused' and then take actions to get them looked after. It's about being willing to enter into conflict and risk losing a connection with someone because the alternative is not caring. It's about not valuing everyone else's needs as more important than our own. It's about not simply withdrawing when someone else does something that results in our feeling ignored.

    These are not 8 or 1 issues.

    Meanwhile, what the OP mentioned is very much something that I would link to how a 1 handles anger, the self-directed shame at not being good enough or doing what they should be doing. So I would suggest reading up on Enneagram 1 and anger.

    What you have spoken of AzulEyes is more 8ish, however you seem to have found a healthy approach to it.

    All different types of anger with different causes and therefore different answers for self-growth. I believe finding ones gut type/fix is very important when it comes to understanding your own relationship with anger.

  3. #33
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I've expanded cause I felt like it

    And I do see it as relevant to the OP now I've considered it, as in I see that as a connection to Enneagram 1. Gonna explain 9ness though cause it's what I know from living it...

    9s are the type who have lost connection with Holy Love.

    Holy Love is the idea that love is unconditional. For 9s we can see how that would be true for other people, however when it comes to ourselves we learnt early on that it was better to be who other people around us wanted us to be and believed that so long as we could do that we would be loved. We learnt to see things how everyone else around us did, we're great with understanding others because we really can see things from your point of view, we need to in order to know what will keep the peace and not break our connection with others. What we neglect when doing so is often our own point of view, so much of the time we simply don't hold one, it may conflict with yours, you may not like it and therefore you may not like us, we often see everyone else's pov as more valid than our own, partly because people tend to care about their opinions while we don't hold strongly to many views, remember, we see our being loved as conditional and as we want love as much as anyone we want to meet those conditions, having your own needs can hurt that.

    When someone gets angry at us it threatens our belief we are lovable which is why 9s have such a hard time with conflict, we don't like it around us as it threatens our inner balance and "why can't everyone just see where everyone else is coming from, realise we're all the same at the end of the day, and just get along?!". And we sure don't like it directed towards us because there's no feeling connected when someone is angry at you.

    So we dismiss ourselves, we fear conflict is a sign we are not lovable, and we see all points of view as valid in their own way… except ours.

    The world doesn't operate that way though, so when a 9 dismisses their own needs in favour of someone around them they don't see it as us being giving and respond in kind, they either ignore it as whatever, maybe don't even notice, or see us as easy to take advantage of. Over time we start resenting how much we feel we give up to others without being taken into consideration in return, that grows our anger. Other people do not need to do a single thing for this to happen, as you can hopefully see, we do this to ourselves when we dismiss our own needs and value other peoples more.

    So anger rises over feeling easy to be overlooked, invisible, unlovable, unappreciated. Then something (often stupid) triggers strong anger. For a w1 it can turn critical towards self and others, for a w8 it can turn into rage against the entire world, however because we are super with tuning out our own needs and ignoring them, the hardest thing for a 9 without exposure to Enneagram, is actually realising they are angry in the first place. We may tense our body, we may get frustrated over stupid things, we may withdraw within ourselves and say nothing, and yet without awareness of our issue with anger we may not connect those things to anger. Find me a 9 who has never claimed "I'm just not an angry person, I can count on one hand the amount of times I have been angry, just ask anyone who knows me" and odds are stacked high that would have found someone mistyped as a 9.

    Problem with this anger is when it rises, our automatic reaction can be we have no right to be angry, we can see the other pov and easily excuse poor behaviour because we understand the motivations, so we push the anger down and do not allow it to be expressed, or if it does slip out it's a flash in the pan and we quickly move on without resolving. Ofc I'm talking about unhealthy behaviours here.

    So for a 9 understanding our anger is about caring enough about ourselves to notice our needs so we can recognise when they are 'abused' and then take actions to get them looked after. It's about being willing to enter into conflict and risk losing a connection with someone because the alternative is not caring. It's about not valuing everyone else's needs as more important than our own. It's about not simply withdrawing when someone else does something that results in our feeling ignored.

    These are not 8 or 1 issues.

    Meanwhile, what the OP mentioned is very much something that I would link to how a 1 handles anger, the self-directed shame at not being good enough or doing what they should be doing. So I would suggest reading up on Enneagram 1 and anger.

    What you have spoken of AzulEyes is more 8ish, however you seem to have found a healthy approach to it.

    All different types of anger with different causes and therefore different answers for self-growth. I believe finding ones gut type/fix is very important when it comes to understanding your own relationship with anger.
    It sounds a lot like Fe- being in tune with others. I know ENTP has Fe as tertiary. Do you think 9 is found more with Fe doms or Fe users in general?
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  4. #34
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    It sounds a lot like Fe- being in tune with others. I know ENTP has Fe as tertiary. Do you think 9 is found more with Fe doms or Fe users in general?
    E9 can be nearly any type in terms of frequent combinations, however it's actually most commonly seen with IxFP.

  5. #35
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    It sounds a lot like Fe- being in tune with others. I know ENTP has Fe as tertiary. Do you think 9 is found more with Fe doms or Fe users in general?
    Fi is more "being in tune with others". Fi listens. Fe is more about objectively figuring out how to get people to interact harmoniously. It's more about externalities than about being "in tune."

    E9, as Kaspar mentioned, can be any type, as is the case for any of the Enneagram types, I believe.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #36
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The anger types, 8-9-1, show three distinct types of anger, what you mention there is more stereotypical of how an 8 can seem, don't be fooled into thinking 9s and 1s don't have just as much of a problem with it.




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    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fi is more "being in tune with others". Fi listens. Fe is more about objectively figuring out how to get people to interact harmoniously. It's more about externalities than about being "in tune."

    E9, as Kaspar mentioned, can be any type, as is the case for any of the Enneagram types, I believe.
    This is literally the best explanation of Fi vs Fe in terms of interacting with people- that I've ever heard. Kudos INTJ!
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  8. #38
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Please explain. I am more than interested.
    I expanded above some.

    For a 9 anger often shows up over feeling dismissed or mistreated, and is automatically repressed/ignored. When it does come out it is often triggered by indirect causes, things that wouldn't normally bother them become seen as the causes of their anger as the anger has been building for some time and found an easy target to focus on (ie cut off in traffic, no one can hear them swearing at the driver, or punching benches Udog style) the anger can be expressed in accordance with their wing, it's often not seen by others though, maybe felt in stubbornness or not even that if they just withdraw.

    For a 1 the anger is critical both towards self and others and is going to often rise over things like seeing their own lack of perfection or being disappointed in circumstances, 1s don't tend to blow up in your face with rage it's more subtle and re-directed. An angry 1 is typically finding fault in those around them, and maybe telling them about that, as they are idealists anger can still be suppressed so only critical judgement is seen.

    8 anger is what people typically think of with the word 'rage', they are the gut type that will freely express anger and aggression. Anger is power it stops fear and vulnerability, feels strong and without facade.

    All are core anger types and need to find a way to deal with anger in a positive way, however each need to focus on different things.

  9. #39
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    I've always thought of my guilt stemming from anger.

    Constantly eroding my will to act.

  10. #40
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Anger vs rage. I know people that when in an emotionally unstable place, you can be like, "Hi. How ya' doin'?" And then wish you were dead cuz you see the devil himself in their eyes.
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