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Thread: Anger and guilt

  1. #11
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    One popular way of interpreting anger is to see it as an indication that one is overly attached to a single outcome.

    Example: An new upgrade or version of an old computer game comes out. You play the new version of the game and decide that it sucks. There are two possible scenarios:

    1) If you really liked the older version of the game and were anticipating that the new version would be even better, then you may feel terribly let down by the new version and may feel angry at the developers of the new version. IOW, in this scenario you were emotionally attached to a certain outcome (that the game would be good) and you were disappointed.

    2) OTOH, if you didn’t particularly care about that game beforehand, then you won’t be as attached to the outcome; when you find out that the new version sucks, it’s no big deal; there are plenty of other interesting games to play out there; it’s no big deal if this one game sucks. So you don't feel any great anger, and it's easy to move on.

    Similar to scenario #1, above: One can get «overly attached to a single outcome» when it comes to one’s work or one’s relationship or even one’s view of oneself. If you have a specific vision or plan as to how your job, marriage, or life should turn out, then you may become quite angry when that plan subsequently becomes derailed by events. Overplanning and excessive attachment to a single outcome is almost guaranteed to result in anger and frustration when life throws its inevitable curve balls.

    Hence your question:



    If you’re overly attached to a certain vision of yourself as a productive, disciplined, proactive individual, then you may feel quite angry when you find that you can’t live up to that vision due to personal shortcomings.
    I don't have that vision at all. It's just that I've realized that I'll need to become that person to get what I want. And I've wanted these things as long as i can remember. The interesting thing form me is just how many behaviors and attitudes I can change. I don't feel like it makes me less "me".

    I don't need to be more forgiving with myself, not about that kind of thing. I need to be tougher with myself, and I'm starting to find that I enjoy life better when I am. When I'm not, it always seems to linger in my mind what I should be doing, anyway.



    OTOH, there’s the alternative view that anger can be harnessed positively. One attribute of anger is that it usually includes the assumption that you can still do something about the situation. (The alternative is sadness, which results when you know you can do nothing about the outcome, such as when someone dies.) So anger may induce you to re-examine the situation and attack it from a new angle or learn new skills so that you can make a second, more successful run at a project.
    This part rings truer for me. To me it makes no sense that we would evolve something as potentially destructive as anger if it did not have some kind of benefit.

    To sum up: A good way to view anger is as a normal, healthy reaction to a misalignment between expectations and outcome. From there, you can re-examine the situation and choose one of two possible paths:
    A) Realize that your expectation was perhaps unrealistic, and be in a position to accept an unanticipated outcome and move on without wasting a lot of energy and mourning over it. In other words, don’t be overly attached to a single outcome.

    or

    B) Decide that you want to take a second run at the problem, but recognize that you need additional resources in order to be more successful next time; and go seek out those resources.
    I think I can change a lot more things than I would have previously thought possible.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #12
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    I think most anger is actually frustration.
    Frustration for not being heard.
    Frustration for things not going your way.
    Frustration for not "winning" the argument.
    Anger is sort of losing control in a fit of frustration- or releasing the frustration through anger.
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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I think most anger is actually frustration.
    Frustration for not being heard.
    Frustration for things not going your way.
    Frustration for not "winning" the argument.
    Anger is sort of losing control in a fit of frustration- or releasing the frustration through anger.
    This.

  4. #14
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I think most anger is actually frustration.
    Frustration for not being heard.
    Frustration for things not going your way.
    Frustration for not "winning" the argument.
    Anger is sort of losing control in a fit of frustration- or releasing the frustration through anger.
    Then what is anger? more vocal frustration?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Then what is anger? more vocal frustration?
    I feel like it is an expression of frustration. Either inwardly or outwardly. Inward- letting things 'brew" and turn your stomach --- making you pace. Letting the frustration get the best of you. Outwardly- punching walls, swearing, yelling.
    It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are. ~e.e. cummings

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  6. #16
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Don't a lot of people with "anger management issues" have some sort of baseline "entitlement" issue? It's MY RIGHT to be in charge of you---- or this outcome ----- How dare someone do it their way---- when it's supposed to be MY WAY!
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    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    Don't a lot of people with "anger management issues" have some sort of baseline "entitlement" issue? It's MY RIGHT to be in charge of you---- or this outcome ----- How dare someone do it their way---- when it's supposed to be MY WAY!

    Pretty sure women get angry, too. Are women entitled?

    Anytime someone insinuates that they "never get angry", that arouses suspicion.


    ''I'm not aware when I get angry, and I think I'm doing something other than getting angry/it doesn't count as anger because I'm objectively right."

    In fact, I've seen you get angry on this forum on several occasions when talking about situations in your personal life.

    You also said that anger can come from needing to be right all the time and win arguments. I'm not sure, but I think you're referring to me.

    In which, case, you are mistaken. I don't need to be right all the time, and in fact, would often prefer to be wrong on many occasions. Like, for instance, with regards to hidden intentions behind statements. Often, giving people the benefit of the doubt just ends up confirming what I suspected to be the case anyway. I also have no interest in winning arguments, but I'm not going to let another person win just so they can feel better about themselves. Someone must defeat me by honest means, and that has in fact happened on this forum. Emotional manipulation and shaming is not an honest way of winning an argument.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  8. #18
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post

    Anytime someone insinuates that they "never get angry", that arouses suspicion.
    9s are like this. Anger? What anger? It's there under the surface - subconscious but not expressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I think most anger is actually frustration.
    Frustration for not being heard.
    Frustration for things not going your way.
    Frustration for not "winning" the argument.
    Anger is sort of losing control in a fit of frustration- or releasing the frustration through anger.
    I think that's a great definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Then what is anger? more vocal frustration?
    It doesn't have to be expressed at all. It's felt. I don't think it's a particularly good idea to bottle it up but everyone is different.

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    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Anger comes from all sorts of things, and anger is not a "negative" emotion. It's how one reacts to an emotion that is positive or negative. Anger can result in someone deciding to improve things, or focus on the task at hand, just as "love" can cause someone to become a creepy stalker of the object of one's affection.

    Some people should probably allow more anger in their lives, e.g., Enneagram 9s. Others could do with less anger.

    In the case of the OP, being angry because of guilt over one's personal flaws can result in positive changes. Anger, like all emotions, is best thought of as a signal. We tend to get caught up in feeling the emotions, and want to only feel the good emotions without doing the work that the "bad" emotions indicate we need to do.

    W/r to being lazy, undisciplined, and procrastinating, it can be difficult to get out of the modes of thought that result in these traits. Anger can kick you out of that. For myself, the trick was finally realizing that it is easier to do the work earlier, than to avoid it until it becomes difficult or undoable. I liken it to eating your veggies while they're warm and still have flavor, rather than avoiding them until they're a cold pile of unappetizing mush.

    That doesn't mean I don't procrastinate at all, but rather that there are things that I simply don't procrastinate. And, yes, often I feel anger as I do those things, because, well, I don't WANT to do them (emotionally), but I know that it is better to do them than not, and I feel better afterwards.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #20
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    9s are like this. Anger? What anger? It's there under the surface - subconscious but not expressed.



    I think that's a great definition.



    It doesn't have to be expressed at all. It's felt. I don't think it's a particularly good idea to bottle it up but everyone is different.
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