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  1. #21
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Are you saying that gender is somehow "programmed into our heads" in utero, much as sex is determined in our reproductive organs?
    I fail to see how it could be otherwise. Consider the experience of David Reimer, if you haven't read the story there's a good book out there called As Nature Made Him, if gender was something that could be programmed by social conditioning then Dr Money's theory would have been a success and David Reimer, who was raised as a girl would have seen himself as one and lived out his life without gender dysphoria. He didn't.

    There have been study's done on transwomen and on transmen, before hormone therapy, and there are aspects that did not align with the subjects of their biological sex yet did match with those of the sex they identified as, these are physical things, I'm on my phone ATM so can't link anything in, google is your friend though, naturally you're looking for scientific studies, not sensionalist stories, 'white matter' would be a good key word to use. There is still a lot to be known, I personally believe the answer as to why/how will be found in something that happened before birth.

  2. #22
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I fail to see how it could be otherwise. Consider the experience of David Reimer, if you haven't read the story there's a good book out there called As Nature Made Him, if gender was something that could be programmed by social conditioning then Dr Money's theory would have been a success and David Reimer, who was raised as a girl would have seen himself as one and lived out his life without gender dysphoria. He didn't.
    Reimer also lived at a time when gender expectations were much stronger than they are today. There are plenty of people born anatomically female who don't identify with much of anything presented as feminine, social conditioning notwithstanding. The majority of these people don't seem to feel uncomfortable with their bodies, though, just the idea of acting like conventional women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    There have been study's done on transwomen and on transmen, before hormone therapy, and there are aspects that did not align with the subjects of their biological sex yet did match with those of the sex they identified as, these are physical things, I'm on my phone ATM so can't link anything in, google is your friend though, naturally you're looking for scientific studies, not sensionalist stories, 'white matter' would be a good key word to use. There is still a lot to be known, I personally believe the answer as to why/how will be found in something that happened before birth.
    This is more convincing. I would be interested in these studies, though I don't have time to chase them down right now. So what you are saying is that in transgendered people, there are physiological similarities to their true gender that don't agree with their original reproductive system. This sounds a bit like what I've read about gay people, namely that parts of their brain are more similar to those of the opposite sex than the same sex. Gay people don't desire a physical realignment, though, just the freedom to have a relationship with a same-sex partner. Are you implying, then, that it isn't equally workable to have reproductive organs of one sex and other physiology of the other? The need for these to be aligned seems more like the kind of constraint society would impose, as it essentially says humans need to fit (entirely) into one box or the other.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #23
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is more convincing. I would be interested in these studies, though I don't have time to chase them down right now. So what you are saying is that in transgendered people, there are physiological similarities to their true gender that don't agree with their original reproductive system.
    Transsexuals, yes. Which is why I say I see it as a form of intersex, just not something shows as a physical difference at birth or in chromosome tests.

    Worth looking at:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20562024/

    This sounds a bit like what I've read about gay people, namely that parts of their brain are more similar to those of the opposite sex than the same sex. Gay people don't desire a physical realignment, though, just the freedom to have a relationship with a same-sex partner.
    From what I understand its different aspects of the brain, but yeah.

    Are you implying, then, that it isn't equally workable to have reproductive organs of one sex and other physiology of the other? The need for these to be aligned seems more like the kind of constraint society would impose, as it essentially says humans need to fit (entirely) into one box or the other.
    Not at all, if someone is comfortable in that space then power to them. Just as interesex conditions are varied and produce all sorts of varieties of what is considered male or female by medical standards and social ones, the trans spectrum is not black and white. With transsexuals however gender dysphoria is an extreme discomfort with ones body as it does not match with what they know themselves to be in their brain, this is a seperate issue to having the world at round them treat them as male or female when they feel otherwise, it's something that still exists when treated as they wish to or hell, when alone.

  4. #24
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Not at all, if someone is comfortable in that space then power to them. Just as interesex conditions are varied and produce all sorts of varieties of what is considered male or female by medical standards and social ones, the trans spectrum is not black and white. With transsexuals however gender dysphoria is an extreme discomfort with ones body as it does not match with what they know themselves to be in their brain, this is a seperate issue to having the world at round them treat them as male or female when they feel otherwise, it's something that still exists when treated as they wish to or hell, when alone.
    This seems to be saying that some people are content remaining intersexed, while others want the disparity reconciled so their whole physiology as much as possible corresponds to their single, real gender. Are there any known factors that predispose people to one response or the other? Do you think social conditioning plays a role? Put this way, wanting one's reproductive organs to match one's inner physiology seems almost superficial, like feeling if you have red hair, you should also have green eyes.

    [I don't mean to trivialize the experience of transsexuals by this line of questioning. I really am trying to understand, and I appreciate your patience in answering.]
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #25
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This seems to be saying that some people are content remaining intersexed, while others want the disparity reconciled so their whole physiology as much as possible corresponds to their single, real gender. Are there any known factors that predispose people to one response or the other?
    Yep. Dysphoria.

    I differentiate between transsexual and the term trans or transgender. Transsexual is a medical term it is basically more black and white in how someone identifies; extreme dysphoria, a strong and persistent desire to live life as the gender they identify as. The term transgender is an umbrella term (one I personally don't use unless referring to young children, for that reason), it includes those who are transsexual as well as genderqueer or gender fluid, androgyne, bi-gender, cross dresser and any other trans* whatever.

    For someone who is transsexual, not transitioning will almost invariably result in a never-ending state of depression and discomfort, for someone who is trans* but not transsexual, transitioning could leave them uncomfortable, or even with (stronger) dysphoria.

    So yes, there are people for whom their birth sex does not match their own image of themselves, yet would not want/need to transition. The key here is: Not everyone who is trans* has dysphoria, and that can come in different doses.

    Do you think social conditioning plays a role? Put this way, wanting one's reproductive organs to match one's inner physiology seems almost superficial, like feeling if you have red hair, you should also have green eyes.

    [I don't mean to trivialize the experience of transsexuals by this line of questioning. I really am trying to understand, and I appreciate your patience in answering.]
    I'm a tad confused about "wanting one's reproductive organs to match" part and if you're talking generically about transition or about genitalia or what, but I don't see why one wouldn't want to have a connection between mind and body if they could, everyone else does. I can understand why people use words like superficial, it comes from those for whom sex and gender are in alignment as for them gender is the same as sex, when there is no disconsonance, how could you see it as separate things? Well when they are separate and unmatched it creates discomfort.

    There are three aspects of transitioning; social, medical and legal. If I could blanket simplify things, I'd say social - changing what people call you, pronouns, how you dress etc - are about expression and fitting into the world around in a way that is comfortable. Medical - hormones and surgeries - are about dealing with dysphoria. And legal - name change, gender marker change on ID - is about ease of getting around without discrimination or the likes. With all of this there is no one way to transition and not everyone would have surgery to make themselves sterile.

    Social expectations do have an impact, imo that is what leads to much depression as people can't express themselves naturally without pressure to be otherwise. When expressing yourself naturally leads to ridicule, rejection or abuse, it impacts your emotional well being, but consider how transitioning would lead to a threat of greater ridicule, rejection or abuse and the idea that it's a superficial thing has to be rejected. Just as it's said that 'no one would choose to be gay if it was a choice', no one would choose to transition if they could live a happy and fulfilled life without doing so.

    People are not treated differently according to their eye colour, they are treated differently according to their sex, and when you add dysphoria on top of the social aspects of how one must navigate the world according to the gender people see them as (expectations, relationship dynamics, sexual attraction and intimacy), it can be exceptionally painful to deal with, the suicide statistics show that. It is hard to see all the areas this would impact for someone trans as it pretty much covers things someone who isn't trans would simply take for granted.

  6. #26
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    @Kasper I remember reading part of a book when i was between the ages of 12-14 about a boy raised as a girl because of botched circumcision and was a twin and lived in canada. I remember being fascinated it by it and the same out come of what you described is that the same person?

  7. #27
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    @Kasper I remember reading part of a book when i was between the ages of 12-14 about a boy raised as a girl because of botched circumcision and was a twin and lived in canada. I remember being fascinated it by it and the same out come of what you described is that the same person?
    Yep, David Reimer.

  8. #28
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    the idealist in me doesn't understand why people get so shitty when someone is trans. I mean let people be who they are it doesn't really affect you and if it does it's just on the surface, and surface means nothing really. I don't like grits but i wouldn't go up to someone and shun them for eating grits, it's whatever to me. also I suspected it was the same person.

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