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Thread: Lucid dreaming

  1. #111
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    for me, it has often been very hard to awaken my physical body, after "leaving" it for a dreamstate. i would leave my dreamhouse much like you, saying good by and stuff, and end the visuals and become caught in blackness of physical paralysis for minutes, eventually creating hallucinations of my body, while trying to get in touch with it. its like "oh now i am in my right arm, now i should move it a little bit" but then it seems to move right through the matter of the chair, which indicates, that both arm and chair are just an illusion, a loose representation of actual data from the five senses ... i have spend full hours fighting to get my body back.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    so if i assume that its not all that different from how it is for me, than i will also assume, that this letting go is where a break of "reality control" will happen, which might induce a dream-state that is suggestible to illusion, for example, on the way back from trance, false awakenings are likely to happen, which indicate, that the "lucidity" has been lost. in my experience it took experience to find all these different states and compare them from a distance, tell "how" lucid experiences have been, or how illusory. for instance these so called out of body experiences are horribly tricky.
    My word, they are tricky aren't they?

    And it seems to me that the two states are tricky because they are mutually exclusive.

    So we can only see one state at a time. And it is terribly easy to assume that is the only state.

    And that is why it is so vital to learn to move safely between the states.

    Two French psychologists gave a nice name to this movement and called it, "L'alternance".

    I guess in English we would say, "alternating between the states".

    But I guess it would be said much better in German.

    So I guess you and I are not learning trance, we are learning to move in and out of, and between, trances.

    We are learning to move.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    for me, it has often been very hard to awaken my physical body, after "leaving" it for a dreamstate. i would leave my dreamhouse much like you, saying good by and stuff, and end the visuals and become caught in blackness of physical paralysis for minutes, eventually creating hallucinations of my body, while trying to get in touch with it. its like "oh now i am in my right arm, now i should move it a little bit" but then it seems to move right through the matter of the chair, which indicates, that both arm and chair are just an illusion, a loose representation of actual data from the five senses ... i have spend full hours fighting to get my body back.
    Yes, this is very interesting.

    And it reminds me of something - sometimes in a real dream, I won't be able to move - and sometimes when I am in a waking trance, I feel I really don't want to move at all.

    However for me these experiences are brief and pass quickly. While for you, they are long and drawn out.

    And there is a name for this experience, but I can't remember it now.

    But what comes to mind is this - if you are designing a trance, the first thing you design is a way in and a way out.

    The second thing you might design is suggestions you will give yourself in the trance, like, "I will awake relaxed and refreshed".

    Or you might give yourself the suggestion, "As I leave the trance, I become fully awake and alert".

    So perhaps the most important part of a trance is designing the way in and out, and the suggestions you will make to yourself. And it is important to do this before you enter the trance and then you may not have to spend full hours fighting to get your body back.

    But I must admit I love trance and can't imagine my life without it.

  4. #114
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Last night, or this morning rather, I had a lucid dream. Ironically, I didn't pass through a door in the dream and do a reality check. I've been thinking about it so much recently, though, that thinking about dreaming happened within the dream, which made me realize I was in a dream.

    It was awesome. I dreamed that my apartment was beautifully decorated... can hardly even describe it. It was amazing that it had come from my own mind. I explored this environment, and found myself feeling very free to do anything, knowing it was only a dream. However, when I acted upon a desire that was not an immediate one, the dream ended. You see, I had a bet going with my friend as to who could lucid dream first, and to win you had to both fly and have sex in the dream. I went for the sex, even though the dream had a lot of other things to explore, and I walked in and the girl was wearing a red lingerie. And she smiled, and it ended.

    I suspect things will only deepen from here.

  5. #115
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    you should not reinforce false intentions, because they might not only stop specific dreams but lucid dreams altogether.

    what happens often, when i become semi lucid, is that i want to act out stuff that i have done before or wanted to achieve before. often i want to find other people in a different house in my neighborhood, or i am flying over a town hoping to find something sacred symbolical like a church that is all about my most inner secrets, or i want to fly higher and higher, hoping to see more and more of the globe.

    what happens is, that the dream ends soon

    i never get to experience more than outside of this church, or woman ...

    because i can not imagine something, that is supposed to surprise me.

    by definition a surprise is an external force. a women who welcomes your peter is external, god in a church is external, discovering the world is external. this definition of external is entirely subjective. you can see the whole globe in a dream, if you don't consciously expect (and therefore define) it to be something alien/external. same for church, woman ...

    we must realize, that dreams are where we find our selves.

    not even our "higher self" because this label is usually a fantasy which defines/implicates it as an external authority. god is not going to talk to us, if we want him to. nobody gives us commands about what is the right thing to do, if we want to know badly, which would already imply that we plan to use the command to live from a disintegrated position (just doing my job).


    after discovering ourself in a dream, we can say: this was my higher self, this was a subconscious repressed part, the inner child and so on. we must not ask for some thing to happen to us. adventure is by definition external.

    any attitude of disintegration will create distance between us and the dream-force and therefore end the dream state. the dream state is naturally projecting symbolically, but this projection is not the product of disintegration. disintegration or integration happen not in the symbols of the dream, but in our interaction with the symbols. this interaction is a part of the dream. therefor the dream as a whole (storyline) is often about disintegration. but any objects we can see in the dream, are a part of us, in that moment, because we are what we see, the dream is us.

    asking for something external is asking for the five senses and the rest of samsara.

    so lets have hot dream sex.

    how could we achieve that?

    you have the desire to win that bet, and you have a desire for adventure. trying not to be primitive and superficial like that will only cause disintegration. no, this is you. (let's say this is me) - but you need to work with it. ask the dream to show you, what your sexual desires are about. ask what is the face of your anima. ask the dream, what it is in you, that wants the approval of being the winner of this bet. maybe your friend will pop up in the dream, to watch you having sex with your anima. if you are lucid enough, you remember that he is a part of you, the part that is not involved in communion with your love, but with abusing it like it was a trophy. ask him why he would do that?

    i don't mean that advice literally, because i could not act that smart in a dream.
    i stumble into chances sometimes and choose them smartly, or at other times i do exactly what you did. thats why i know how it is wrong. i am good example of a failure. i hope that helps to see the principle. we don't dream according to good intentions, but according to general understanding/insight/agreement. maybe just writing this down will help me, to be more sincere in my next lucid dream ...

  6. #116
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Wow, nice post. Definitely gave me some things to ponder. I actually did intend to take the advice literally, but then you said not to!

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  8. #118
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    it's weird sometimes asking dream character resulted in them, giving me very smart answers, but sometimes it just constitutes exactly the same disintegration that i have described. it can imply the idea, that it is not (a part of) me, who knows the answer to this question ..... it's really subjective. depends on the attitude i have, when i ask the question. so true lucidity is also in that attitude. that's also where the trixter comes alive.... they will lie to me, if i secretly want them to.

  9. #119
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    I've heard that dream characters, when told they are dream characters, never believe it. Maybe it was in this thread? I dunno.

  10. #120
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    can't remember this exact situation, but it think this would also be subjective, relative to what the dreamer means when he uses this word dream character.

    they are not supposed to "believe" anything about them selves, because they are not independent personalities. if you ask them to express a believe about them selfs, they will have it, just for you, but that is a lie, sort of, but your own lie of course.

    at best they are supposed to know to tell that they are "parts of you". i had dream character telling me, they are parts of me, but i already knew (believed) that anyway, when i asked them, i just wanted to know which part and they knew that, albeit not in the most easy to understand terms.

    so suggesting to them that they are "just dream" characters is not a meaningful or respectful way of talking to your self. it seems to sound like: you don't belong here. who are you anyway? it's a disintegrating action.

    there are no hard rules about how specific situations work out, only probabilities, because many dreamers share believe systems. they are part of cultivated character. there also seems to be a certain failure tolerance: your subconscious dream engine can deal with some amount of shallow ego suggestions in a meaningful way, but will only reflect shallowness if it gets to much. it might also depend on depth of sleep, hormonal stuff, whatever ... some verry few dreams are really like unstoppable incorruptible messages.

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