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  1. #41
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Well let us compare a prosperous, peaceful democratic country without psychologists.

    Yes, Japan has so few psychologists, it's as though they don't exist.

    And what is the result of this? The result is that Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world.

    In fact psychologists are so scarce in Japan that Japanese who are suffering from Depression are advised to enroll in an English speaking class because the foreigner will listen to them.
    It's their culture, as is similar in China. Not all cultures view suicide the same way.

    It's not even my place to say it's healthy, since it's not for me to say how the Japanese should structure their society.

  2. #42
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saudade View Post
    haha... so you're saying that a common attitude amongst people is not a threat on perceived territory?

    Or that some people feel they hold a "greater right to things"? I may be an INTP and do weigh up things rationally, but then if you presume everything is metaphysically controlled then this is opinion and not fact. It's little to do with INTPness (though i generally don't care about logic, but then I think I'm an atypical INTP).

  3. #43
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    Well kind of. But then according to them:

    - I deserve to be beaten up because I'm reserved
    - I am "bad" for being an atheist and that doing things most don't is "wrong"
    - I am wrong to like casual sex, and it's something "not done"
    (and, in response, Lark posted the following)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You're posting in this thread alone leads me to suspect there's more to this than meets the eye.

    I think there's grounds to believe, from this thread alone, that you're rationalising your behaviour, behaviour you admittedly dont want to give up or refrain from and which are being challenged by your therapist rather than validated.

    If you are supposed to be working with a therapist to overcome or change this behaviour and you are unwilling to have it challenged I'm really not sure what you will achieve. There's too much resistance for analysis, if its a depth psychologist, if its cognitive behaviour therapy, rational emotive behaviour therapy or any of the variations on those themes then there's really has to be a desire to change in the client.

    Like I say you're finding fault in the therapeutic process and your therapist but you should be looking to your self instead.

    Wow. Just wow. Both of these posts are beyond the pale, though for different reasons.

    First of all, danseen, what you are describing from your therapist is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. It's unprofessional, it's unethical, it's unhelpful, it's fractally wrong! And yes, that's a clear case of patient abuse.

    If a licensed therapist said that to you, that is grounds for them to lose their license. If, as the content of the therapist's statements makes me think, this is some kind of church-associated intervention, someone needs to investigate them and shut them down (and take away their license if they even have one).

    Lark, whatever you may think of danseen based on his (her?) posts, assuming he is truthfully and accurately reporting his experience with the therapist, you have no room to turn your criticism to his reaction to said therapist.

    Which behavior are you referring to when you say "that you're rationalising your behaviour, behaviour you admittedly dont want to give up or refrain from and which are being challenged by your therapist rather than validated"? Are you speaking of being reserved, being an atheist, casual sex or "doing things most don't" (which is not specified and could apply to ANY unconventional behavior).

    For the time being, I'll just assume that "doing things most don't" doesn't refer to violent or criminal behavior (which the therapist might be obligated to report to authorities), in which case, the therapist has no business passing value judgements. Their job is to help the client function within themselves and within society. Labelling nonconformity as "wrong" is not the way to do it. Furthermore, a client's religious beliefs are none of the therapist's business, let alone grounds for criticism or ridicule. Being reserved MAY be a problem for the client and their relationships... and suggesting that this could or should be corrected through physical violence is not only NOT an acceptable treatment technique, it's advocating abuse, and could even constitute a threat. And as far as liking casual sex is concerned, the therapist is not there to pass moral judgment on the client, and the only way the client's sex life is their business is if it's causing the client distress or making them unable to function in their personal/professional life. The bar for "casual sex" being a problem is so high that either the client is unable to stop long enough to go to work or get their chores done or the client is engaging in behavior that could constitute rape.

    From the description danseen gives, he is completely justified to sever all ties with the therapist immediately, and, at the very least call that what it was, abuse. He may also have grounds for legal action. This has nothing to do with deflection, not want to change, or anything of the sort. Suggesting anyone put up with this treatment for any amount of time is advocating abuse and blaming the victim. That's not cool, whatever you may think of danseen personally.
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  4. #44
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Ok, now maybe I should reply to the OP like I originally meant to.

    Yes, therapists can be worth it. When a therapist is working out for a client, it can make a huge difference in that client's life. I've had a few therapists in my life, and, although only one was worth it, he was so worth it, he made me think the whole enterprise wasn't pointless.

    There have been studies (here's one such: http://www.apadivisions.org/division...beihl-hans.pdf) and meta-studies recently that all point to the fact that the therapist/client relationship is as important or more important than the specific technique a therapist uses. So, while, for instance, CBT has the most data backing up its effectiveness in a wide range of applications, even a therapist that doesn't use it can help their client as much or more... by simply being warm, supportive, and empathetic. Obviously, a client/therapist relationship doesn't just boil down to warmth/empathy/support on the therapist's part, so it seems that finding the right match between the client and the therapist (which also has to do with how the client's problems dovetail with the therapist's preferred techniques) is the most important factor to treatment success.

    Which all boils down to: psychologists are worth it when you find the right psychologist for you. Otherwise they are a waste of time and money (which appears to be the experience of a lot of people in this thread).
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  5. #45
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    My basic point is that "psychologists" tell me things that are not even ethical by their own professional standards, and they unfairly critique things I do that the many engage in.

    So millions in Europe are not atheists, don't have casual sex, or are not reserved? is it normal to feel anybody "deserves" to be beaten up? Is this condoned in modern Western society? even if it is, that doesn't mean it's inherently justified.

    I simply think psycholologists have a plot to get at me, because they don't like me and want to hurt me. Sounds paranoid, granted, but then if normal social rules, rights and principles don't apply to me, then what else should I think? I think most psychologists think I am "not nice", but then I don't kill, rape, or steal from people and most humans are a mix of benevolent and malevolent traits, so "not nice" should be clearly defined.

  6. #46
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    And I continue to think some here are threatened by my actions, but that's the issue of strangers, not myself.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    Lark, whatever you may think of danseen based on his (her?) posts, assuming he is truthfully and accurately reporting his experience with the therapist, you have no room to turn your criticism to his reaction to said therapist.
    Well, I suppose that's the whole of it then isnt it?

    Assuming they are truthful.

    And why are you assuming they are truthful? I based what I wrote on what was actually occuring within the thread, what were you reaching your conclusions on the basis of?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    Ok, now maybe I should reply to the OP like I originally meant to.

    Yes, therapists can be worth it. When a therapist is working out for a client, it can make a huge difference in that client's life. I've had a few therapists in my life, and, although only one was worth it, he was so worth it, he made me think the whole enterprise wasn't pointless.

    There have been studies (here's one such: http://www.apadivisions.org/division...beihl-hans.pdf) and meta-studies recently that all point to the fact that the therapist/client relationship is as important or more important than the specific technique a therapist uses. So, while, for instance, CBT has the most data backing up its effectiveness in a wide range of applications, even a therapist that doesn't use it can help their client as much or more... by simply being warm, supportive, and empathetic. Obviously, a client/therapist relationship doesn't just boil down to warmth/empathy/support on the therapist's part, so it seems that finding the right match between the client and the therapist (which also has to do with how the client's problems dovetail with the therapist's preferred techniques) is the most important factor to treatment success.

    Which all boils down to: psychologists are worth it when you find the right psychologist for you. Otherwise they are a waste of time and money (which appears to be the experience of a lot of people in this thread).
    It certainly does seem that a lot of people are coming to the thread with their own baggage about therapists.

    Are you really going to pay someone to provide you with warmth/empathy/support?

    That sounds a lot like just paying someone for validation, like I said in my first responses to Danseen, who I have no prior contact with or opinion of.

    I dont think that therapy is purely about seeking validation and agreement, someone to reflect your values and tell you life is great and you can do no wrong.

    I'm sorry if some people have had bad experiences of therapists and they've brought that o the table, what about therapists or helping professionals who've had experiences of clients who hate to be challenged? Who're apt to deflect with drama, vitriol, complaints and even litigation?

    Who'd be a psych eh?

  9. #49
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    My basic point is that "psychologists" tell me things that are not even ethical by their own professional standards, and they unfairly critique things I do that the many engage in.

    So millions in Europe are not atheists, don't have casual sex, or are not reserved? is it normal to feel anybody "deserves" to be beaten up? Is this condoned in modern Western society? even if it is, that doesn't mean it's inherently justified.

    I simply think psycholologists have a plot to get at me, because they don't like me and want to hurt me. Sounds paranoid, granted, but then if normal social rules, rights and principles don't apply to me, then what else should I think? I think most psychologists think I am "not nice", but then I don't kill, rape, or steal from people and most humans are a mix of benevolent and malevolent traits, so "not nice" should be clearly defined.
    Why yes, yes it does. What about that?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    And I continue to think some here are threatened by my actions, but that's the issue of strangers, not myself.
    You would be right, though I think it may be too soon to assume the psychologists you're describing are trying to hurt you. They may simply be negligent and disrespectful of others' belief systems. This often comes hand-in-hand with fundamentalism, though it's certainly not limited to just that. Either way, I think they're breaking the principles their clinics/hospitals/health centers hold them by.

    Still, I'm curious as to what rationale your psychologists had for critiquing casual sex.

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