Borderline Personality Disorder

[Thalassa]

I don't even know how to recognize this disorder. I suspect a few of my clients of having it. I've heard other counsellors mention its not worth counselling them because they are bad for business.

Are you a peer counselor or a guidance counselor?

 

[Seymour]

Because they often don't get better because they don't want to get better, and blame every one else. I mean put yourself in the string of therapists your student dumps on a whim because she doesn't like what they say. It's extremely difficult to work with a patient who doesn't really want help.

There are effective therapies these days for BPD, so getting better is definitely possible, and therapy certainly helps; it was once thought that BPD was untreatable, but that's generally no longer the case. Also, it's reported that people with BPD tend to mellow somewhat as they age, so that helps, too (and may make someone more amenable to therapy as time goes by).

Still, BPD sometimes went by the nickname "the obnoxious patient" before it became a formalized diagnosis, and there's definitely truth to the fact working with someone with BPD takes a lot of time, energy and boundary enforcing. I know older therapists who refer patients with BPD to their younger colleagues because of the time and energy sometimes required. I've heard that helping someone with BPD can be very satisfying, because there is real pain there to alleviated (and pain to the patient's loved ones, friends and/or coworkers, as well).

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Why did it sting? Are you borderline?

No, because of empathy and concern. I'm more like the opposite problem if anything.

They're not worth it because they take your advice, go use it, screw it up, then blame you for all their problems that ultimately will never be fixed.

They also cling to you and become dependant and want to follow you everywhere in real life. What's that movie with billy crystal?

Your girlfriend is mad at you, you get fired from every job for being a douche, you're a lost soul and not sure what to do with your life, people act a certain way around you and you don't know why, you're not sure what career you should take...

Regular people problems. Those are what I fix. Anything more than that requires chemicals and support groups, neither of which counsellors or life coaches provide. It is difficult when clients come to me looking for help in general, and don't even know what the issue is. You listen for hours in the hopes that it will eventually surface, but it never does, and then they get angry because they are spending money by the hour and neither of you has figured out what their problem is.

Even those who simply want someone to listen to them... I feel guilty doing that, because you are paying me to be your friend, which puts me in an awkward position as well.

(speaking of which I'm overdue to set up a referral with a psychiatrist and some support groups).

Oh, so basically they need a referral to a psychiatrist? Or a clinical psychologist? That is a completely different issue.

Because they often don't get better because they don't want to get better, and blame every one else. I mean put yourself in the string of therapists your student dumps on a whim because she doesn't like what they say. It's extremely difficult to work with a patient who doesn't really want help.

I can understand that it would be, and that each case is different. Many people could be impossible to deal with I'm sure.

My personal anecdote might not be representative, although it is the therapists that usually reject my student. She is banned from a few clinics. I'm definitely not a therapist, but my connection with her works and she has dumped on me, yelled at me, told me some rather difficult things. She is only one case, but I do believe strongly in the Carl Rogers approach. I use it as a teacher, and I think the principles are effective in counseling as well.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I like to think that borderline personality disorder is a condition where a person is on the border of whether or not having a personality.

 

[Triforce]

Does she have scars on her arms?

 

[AzulEyes]

Does she have scars on her arms?

he- and no, I don't think anything like that.

 

[AzulEyes]

oopsie- double post

 

[Triforce]

he- and no, I don't think anything like that.

Does he have a tendency to follow after once you leave a room for whats intended to be a short period of time? And he knows. Do you get the sence that he does not want to be alone at all. That fear of abandonment thing.

 

[AzulEyes]

Does he have a tendency to follow after once you leave a room for whats intended to be a short period of time? And he knows. Do you get the sence that he does not want to be alone at all. That fear of abandonment thing.

We live in different cities- much of our interaction is over the phone or text or email too. I had tried to mend our friendship. I just had a blow up with him this week- I think this is it for our friendship. The cruelty that apparently he enjoys inflicting on me- he can inflict on himself. I'm done.

 

[AzulEyes]

I like to think that borderline personality disorder is a condition where a person is on the border of whether or not having a personality.

Honestly- I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not- but this actually resonates with me. I often get a catatonic feel from my friend. I also get a flat feel- total lack of empathy or emotion. YET- if I do or say anything that either displays my emotion (God forbid i display anger, frustration, love, empathy, disgust) and it's something in his sensitive spot - he flies into a rage and tries to use mental tactics to hurt me. I'm fairly sick of this part- cuz I don't take to mental abuse too well. That's why I essentially gave him the middle finger and said good luck finding a friend like me that cares this much about you. Anyhoooo- I digress. But honestly- sometimes it does feel like the personality is fabricated or ebbs and flows depending on who he is dealing with. Not in touch with his own personality / identity. Frustrating.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I befriended a very lovely, unusual, deep girl who I said right to her, "You are an INFP." She was like, "Waaa?" I sent her the test and asked her to tell me the results. She emailed me back, "I'm INFP."

You described it above! We were trying to volunteer together (she with 3 of us on staff) and she completely alienated the other 2. I was the only one who "got" her and could be gentle with her. She had this expectation that whatever she was doing (in a huge- very busy undertaking involving tons of volunteers) could be analyzed, scrutinized, rewarded etc. when really- we just needed all hands on deck to get a job done. She would write pages and pages of expository email expressing all this emotion seemingly out of left field about the situation and my comrades were absolutely befuddled. She finally just quit because she couldn't take it. Poor kid- she had the heart to do it but then TOO much heart to do it. SO intense- never met someone so deeply introspective and emotional and taking the weight of the world not on her shoulders- but into her soul.

That sounds more unhealthy e4 than INFP, although of course many e4 are INFP (but they are other NFs & sometimes SFs too).
The openness in pouring out emotion in email to other people is not very IxFP though, as feelings and emotion are generally not expressed directly on any regular basis. Looking for constant feedback is not very IxFP either, as the the type is said to show an almost extreme indifference to it.

I think Naranjo connected unhealthy e4 to BPD. Enneagram is more about unhealthy fixations & mentalities than Jungian type/MBTI which is more about cognitive preferences (not necessarily healthy or unhealthy). Because of the way tests are written, depressed & unhealthy people may type INFP when they are not. If these people recover, they may find they are not INFP. This has happened on these forums & elsewhere.

Fi is actually rational for an INFP though, so equating this kind of emotional reacting to Fi is a misunderstanding of it. Under severe stress or depression, all personalities can become distorted so that it's hard to tell what preference they were to begin with.

 

[Starry]

That sounds more unhealthy e4 than INFP...

Based solely on personal observation, research, etc. I would correlate BPD with e4 and e6w5cp and FJ (leaning NFJ.)

I am of the opinion that the unpredictable, erratic behavior merely gives the impression of Pe/Fi.

*This is not to suggest that there aren't plenty of disorders correlated with FP or NFP...surely there are but, contrary to popular thinking on this, I am of the opinion that BPD not one of them.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

Based solely on personal observation, research, etc. I would correlate BPD with e4 and e6w5cp and FJ (leaning NFJ.)

I am of the opinion that the unpredictable, erratic behavior merely gives the impression of Pe/Fi.

*This is not to suggest that there aren't plenty of disorders correlated with FP or NFP...surely there are but, contrary to popular thinking on this, I am of the opinion that BPD not one of them.

This is not true BPD is correlated with ENFPs and their unhealthy use of Ne+Te loop. But for BPD the self identity is usually so unstable it is not possible to guess the type. You're right about e4 and e6 though with so poor self identity they hardly can be real 4s but might seem like them.

 

[Starry]

This is not true BPD is correlated with ENFPs and their unhealthy use of Ne+Te loop. But for BPD the self identity is usually so unstable it is not possible to guess the type. You're right about e4 and e6 though with so poor self identity they hardly can be real 4s but might seem like them.

I've heard many people make that same claim...that BPD is correlated with ENFP (I haven't heard anything regarding the Ne+Te loop though and I can't see how over-extroverting would be its source since BPD takes hold so early in life...long before an individual would be equipped with what is needed to 'loop')...and I don't have a problem with that at all if I was able to get my hands on anything that wasn't just that...a statement. Do you have anything credible on this that I could read? (fwiw...I thought my sister was an ENFP too.)

Like I just said to another member...once you really start looking deeply into the disorder you begin to understand that it doesn't exist without extroverted judgment...(that it's one extreme 'final decision' after another)...but again, I'd change my thinking on this if someone could produce something that made use of science in some small way... (and again wasn't merely a statement.)

I would definitely associate ENFP with ADD, ADHD, HPD...possibly NPD...but not BPD.

 

[Ginkgo]

When you're close to someone, it's easy to convince yourself that you have enough authority to diagnose them, especially when you're searching for a way to manage the situation. It can also give you the feeling that you're losing your footing when you're sensitive and you don't want to walk on an eggshell by telling someone that they ought to seek a trained diagnostician.

[MENTION=15728]AzulEyes[/MENTION], I think the best way to handle your situation is - the next time you see them behaving in a way that is symptomatic of BPD, tell them that you love them and that you appreciate being their friend, but that you're concerned about their psychological well being.

It's really as simple as that.

I've lived with someone who's been diagnosed twice with BPD. It's not pretty; extended periods of exposure to extreme cases can leave you feeling like you're in a bind, helpless. At worst, it can leave you with BPD symptoms in turn.

 

[AzulEyes]

When you're close to someone, it's easy to convince yourself that you have enough authority to diagnose them, especially when you're searching for a way to manage the situation. It can also give you the feeling that you're losing your footing when you're sensitive and you don't want to walk on an eggshell by telling someone that they ought to seek a trained diagnostician.

[MENTION=15728]AzulEyes[/MENTION], I think the best way to handle your situation is - the next time you see them behaving in a way that is symptomatic of BPD, tell them that you love them and that you appreciate being their friend, but that you're concerned about their psychological well being.

It's really as simple as that.

I've lived with someone who's been diagnosed twice with BPD. It's not pretty; extended periods of exposure to extreme cases can leave you feeling like you're in a bind, helpless. At worst, it can leave you with BPD symptoms in turn.

Thank you. You are right. I've learned the hard way- coming off a pretty bad week ... really month... of hell. I just want peace. For me. For my friend. Forever. Thank you again so much!

 

[AzulEyes]

That sounds more unhealthy e4 than INFP, although of course many e4 are INFP (but they are other NFs & sometimes SFs too).
The openness in pouring out emotion in email to other people is not very IxFP though, as feelings and emotion are generally not expressed directly on any regular basis. Looking for constant feedback is not very IxFP either, as the the type is said to show an almost extreme indifference to it.

I think Naranjo connected unhealthy e4 to BPD. Enneagram is more about unhealthy fixations & mentalities than Jungian type/MBTI which is more about cognitive preferences (not necessarily healthy or unhealthy). Because of the way tests are written, depressed & unhealthy people may type INFP when they are not. If these people recover, they may find they are not INFP. This has happened on these forums & elsewhere.

Fi is actually rational for an INFP though, so equating this kind of emotional reacting to Fi is a misunderstanding of it. Under severe stress or depression, all personalities can become distorted so that it's hard to tell what preference they were to begin with.

Great points! Thanks so much. And frankly, I do not know other INFPs (that I'm aware) to even compare. I think about that. How you said depressed can test as INFP. What if you are a depressed NT? or SF? Would you simply type as your shadow under duress? Interesting stuff!

 

[hjgbujhghg]

I've heard many people make that same claim...that BPD is correlated with ENFP (I haven't heard anything regarding the Ne+Te loop though and I can't see how over-extroverting would be its source since BPD takes hold so early in life...long before an individual would be equipped with what is needed to 'loop')...and I don't have a problem with that at all if I was able to get my hands on anything that wasn't just that...a statement. Do you have anything credible on this that I could read? (fwiw...I thought my sister was an ENFP too.)

Like I just said to another member...once you really start looking deeply into the disorder you begin to understand that it doesn't exist without extroverted judgment...(that it's one extreme 'final decision' after another)...but again, I'd change my thinking on this if someone could produce something that made use of science in some small way... (and again wasn't merely a statement.)

I would definitely associate ENFP with ADD, ADHD, HPD...possibly NPD...but not BPD.

This is one long article about how dominant and teritiary loops effect personality, when they messed up. Besides the explenation why ENFP and BPD you can also find all of the 16 types here and their weak sides of mental health based on cognitive functions. http://personalitycafe.com/articles/25205-dominant-tertiary-loops-common-personality-disorders.html

 

[AzulEyes]

I see ENFPs as suffering more from anxiety (over stimulation) and ADD / ADHD too like another poster said.

And through this exercise where I'm trying to emerge from an unhealthy situation, I have to admit- I'm a bit angry and frustrated. Wherever I've gone for resources online- it appears that my voice is oppressed in this. If I feel I've been victimized by a person exhibiting mega BPD traits- 1- It's not my "place" to diagnose them, so I'm out of luck. 2- They are in such misery, it's not my place to defend myself with them because they are so raw. In other words, I better just "buck up." 3-I'M the one that should seek counseling whilst continuing to NOT suggest that my tormentor has any issues- or if I do make the suggestion, I should be evasive, not at all straight-forward, and walk on eggshells. Sorry- I need to vent here. This is fucked up. These are the people that manipulate their own therapists- and this is the disease the therapists are like, "No thanks. I'll stick with the raging alcoholic dude. But thanks anyway." That's fine if this is what all of this is seemingly about. My hell is invalidated- and I will find my peace from within and work through this. Meanwhile, my friend will continue to walk through the planet in misery and wreaking havoc on his next victims. And that is truly the reality. I am just grateful in the big picture that it is not a family member I'm dealing with that I cannot actually make a break from. I can make a break from this situation- even though I wanted to help. It's pathetically sad. But I'm not going to be drowned by the person I'm trying to save. It's time for me to stick up for myself. It's time for me to save myself.

 

[Glycerine]

Just stop being a victim and acting like a martyr. Step away or find a way to protect yourself if he's crossing boundaries. He clearly has issues but it's really not your responsibility. You seem way too emotionally entrenched in this situation and you seem desperate for people to validate it by using the BPD diagnosis.

I can see you were trying to help but having a mentality of "saving him" puts you in a "superior" position over him and it's not going to help. He has to hit rock bottom or truly understand the gravity of the situation.