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Borderline Personality Disorder

AzulEyes

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"wrong" isn't quite the word i would use, but if they are among the 30% BPDs who also have NPD or show any signs of narcissistic injury, then it might just not be very effective - i mean telling someone that is one hell of a loaded criticism for them to not be able to take...

but when/if you do, their might be some worth in trying to frame it in an affirming manner:
- saying "i think you have BPD" can come across as you saying there's something wrong with them and who they are...
- alternatively, saying "i think you might suffer from BPD" might imply they are victims of a condition out of their control.
they could be more accepting of the later then of the first.

however, if they do have it, then becoming aware of it can actually help them a great deal - i believe there are medications that can help boarderline's with the mood instability as well as decrease the chances of psychotic breakdowns. it's not a perfect treatment, but it can help her/him gain more control of their lives, both internally and externally (which would in turn be helpful for anyone in their lives).

thank you- really does make sense.
 

AzulEyes

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BPD can develope and behave in lot of ways. One can have love/hate relationship with others, or the negative feelings are turned against that person. Their problem is, that they are not able to see more than one angle of person/thing/belief... So if the person acts once bad to them, they categorize this person as bad, even though he might have tons of amazing characteristics. They tend to be idealistic about their relationship, they idealize one person as "god" and when the person no longer satisfy their idealized expectations, he is categorized as bad and they move on to another person, or throw themselves to sex adventures, binges, crazy shopping and might seem like out of control. This is really important... 1. unstable love/hate relationship with others , 2. out of control behavior... They just go throught extrems... love, hate, binges, starving, biggest party, depression, excitement, burn out... this called borderline for a reason, because people just really struggle to find that final line, where things are still healthy and good and when things are just no longer under their control. A lot of people with BPD might appear as bipolar, but their moods switch in minutes, or hours, while for people with bipolar it might take years to switch from one mood to another. BPD people are also usually extremly over sensitive when it comes to rejection or reactions of others on their self. They are not able to create an inner identity, they just feel empty inside, so all they have is the opinion of others about themselves. The feelings of inner emptiness also tend to be chronic and unchanging. I agree with everyone here, you can't diagnose a person just like that. BPD is complex and hard to understand

That inner emptiness sounds awful. :( And though it helps me so much that everyone seems to agree we are not doctors and certainly not fit to diagnose people. I get that. I am by no means a doctor. But what that also means is the people in the lives of a person who is extremely difficult to communicate with or even ultimately maintain a friendship with- is between a rock and a hard place.

-walking on egg shells
-already to the point where I ended the friendship out of absoutely no choice- my back against the wall
-can't say anything more as I am just an armchair ex-friend at this point
-person will continue to suffer

Sucks
 

AzulEyes

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What if someone you are close to is exhibiting many of these traits? Isn't there value in learning about the disorder and related ones to see if there are strategies to help the relationship? That is completely different from going up to a person and declaring a diagnosis.

There is a significant difference between a diagnosis and a concern. I have family members who are married to people who exhibit these behaviors to a point that they are making everyone around them sick. I've read up on it a lot because the information is practical when applied to situations in my life. Who on earth is going to go up to someone and declare a diagnosis? If you don't suspect it and study, how is anyone going to learn coping mechanisms? Yes, you can go to counseling, but they can't diagnosis someone they don't meet, so the most they could do is direct you to information as well, and support your own emotional wreckage that results from it.

We need to support people who are dealing with dysfunctional people.

I wouldn't suggest a diagnosis, but just look at the emotional imbalances exhibited. I would be more likely to say to the friend that he seems to suffer emotionally for [name the specific issues he deals with] and that he could likely benefit from counseling. If he has self-loathing, or thinks all good or bad about others, then focus on those specific behaviors as the issue and not a label.

Thank you- yes. I actually don't see this person seeking help. (Perhaps there is a chance- but if they did- they would certainly not let on to anyone. They are very firm of maintaining an outward persona to the world of being-in-control.)

So to play devil's advocate, if they never seek help- which like I said, I feel very skeptical they would, this will never be addressed unless a loving friend points them to some help or somehow they start to figure it out themselves and seek help which is highly unlikely. So thank you for this. Though all the comments here are helpful- telling me I have to continue to suffer and I'm not a professional gives me like no options except what I have essentially already done a few days ago. Sent my friend packing. :(
 

AzulEyes

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I have been doing a lot of research on this for many reasons, at the top of the list, knowing how to avoid relationships with people that are unhealthy and trying to better understand why I seek those types of relationships. This is very common among abusive women, they're typically incredibly self deceived and they're often excellent at finding people that are susceptible to their forms of manipulation. Additionally, they're very defensive towards anything that can lift the reality illusion they're hiding behind and will often convince you that you're the issue or the cause of their choices and actions. Much of the time those with cluster B personality disorders like HPD, BPD, NPD, and so on are high functioning seemingly completely normal people and as a result the people they pull into their web are otherwise normal, functional, healthy people.

I recently got out of a relationship with a woman that exhibited the majority of behaviors associated with HPD and it was one heck of a ride even for me and I have solid boundaries.

As an ENTP, she played into my desire to "problem solve" and I wouldn't have otherwise been with her as I can see now that the dust has settled she had nothing to contribute to my life, a healthy relationship and is incapable of a true partnership with anybody including herself without first addressing some things internally.

I would have zero hesitations about being friends with somebody dealing with this provided my emotional needs were in no way attached to them. I would be certain to maintain very firm boundaries and never enable their negative behaviors. I would also have a rule about no negativity or victim behaviors, to them it is like crack for a crack addict and I wouldn't enable it.

Those are my thoughts, I wouldn't give up on a friendship, I would simply educate yourself on how to be the best possible friend for them.

Wow- this is so very helpful. Sorry you endured that. And sounds like really only emotionally strong people with integrity can maintain any type of relationship with those suffering like this.

The no-negativity boundary is amazing. This puts a dead stop to turning the table and making the 'victim' seem like they are crazy. I have questioned my own sanity on several occasions. Great advice- thank you so much.

I don't want to give up on them. I seriously had no choice when my own dignity was on the line. I won't be completely oppressed by a person- even a sick one and out of sympathy for them. In that state- I can't help them anyway. I'm hoping they emerge from their current dizzying state of emotion and reach back out to me. Else- I may never talk to them again actually. Sad
 

AzulEyes

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Just read some GREAT reviews and comments for books on BPD on Amazon. I feel better as some people are stating that being victim and having to be the one to constantly understand the abuser and feel sorry for them is a form of enabling. If you are miserable and drained trying to do this for someone- there comes a time when enough is enough. They must take ownership to ACCEPT the problem lies with them and make an EFFORT for help at which time people who really love them would be happy to surround them and support them and drive them to counseling sessions. But when the very counselors are at a loss and they start to make THEM crazy----

I truly think everyone has their limits in life. And no one should ever enable abusive or twisted behavior. Nor feel guilted into being subjected to twisted realities, dillusions and mental abuse. I probably did the right thing as sad as it is.
 

Seymour

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Just read some GREAT reviews and comments for books on BPD on Amazon. I feel better as some people are stating that being victim and having to be the one to constantly understand the abuser and feel sorry for them is a form of enabling. If you are miserable and drained trying to do this for someone- there comes a time when enough is enough. They must take ownership to ACCEPT the problem lies with them and make an EFFORT for help at which time people who really love them would be happy to surround them and support them and drive them to counseling sessions. But when the very counselors are at a loss and they start to make THEM crazy----

I truly think everyone has their limits in life. And no one should ever enable abusive or twisted behavior. Nor feel guilted into being subjected to twisted realities, dillusions and mental abuse. I probably did the right thing as sad as it is.

I think it's a tough line to walk with people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. On the one hand, their suffering is real and they are deserving of love and support. On the other hand, one has to know one's limits (and enforce them) when dealing with folks with BPD. It can be tough to remain engaged, since one can tend to feel angry and manipulated in response. Expressing an angry response is generally unhelpful to someone with BPD, so it's important to know one's limits for dealing with things calmly. One has to be able to calmly wait out the reactive storms when they are triggered. If you can't, you may need to distance oneself for everyone's sake.

Also, keep in mind that someone with BPD may have relatively normal relationships in some spheres of their life (at work, for example), but have real problems in one or more other areas (such as with family, friends, or romantic relationships). Someone with BPD may be able to maintain some healthy relationships, and writing such a person off because they are unhealthy in another sphere may be unfair. Conversely, being a pollyanna and ignoring patterns in previous/other relationships is not reality based. Staying aware of relationship dynamics is important. If someone thinks you walk on water, chances are that view isn't going to last forever. With borderlines, you may go from being wonderful saint to horrible betrayer in seconds.

MBTI-wise, I suspect that Judgers, and particularly SJs, may have a real advantage when dealing with people who suffer from BPD, since both monitoring and consistency come naturally to them. For Perceivers, it may be tough to monitor and enforce limits with the needed consistency over time. Being adaptive and go-with-the-flow isn't always a plus when dealing with a person with BPD.
 
B

brainheart

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Have you known this friend long? If you haven't been friends with her long enough to notice a pattern it could be lots of other things. For example, bipolar can look a lot like BPD but the person is only behaving that way when in the midst of an episode- and these episodes can be mixed and rapid cycling which confuses things. I've heard PMDD can also look like BPD.

Otherwise, unhealthy enneagram sixes and fours can exhibit borderline symptoms, especially if they are sexual doms. I know I do when unhealthy.

Or it could be BPD. Lots of people have good suggestions as far as that goes. I don't think a person should avoid treatment just because of the stigma. All that does is increase the stigma. If more people are properly diagnosed with mental illness and are open about it it becomes less of a big deal.

I have bipolar disorder. However, I reached the conclusion I needed help myself and I really didn't take kindly to other people telling me I should get help. But I'm that sort of person.
 

AzulEyes

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I think it's a tough line to walk with people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. On the one hand, their suffering is real and they are deserving of love and support. On the other hand, one has to know one's limits (and enforce them) when dealing with folks with BPD. It can be tough to remain engaged, since one can tend to feel angry and manipulated in response. Expressing an angry response is generally unhelpful to someone with BPD, so it's important to know one's limits for dealing with things calmly. One has to be able to calmly wait out the reactive storms when they are triggered. If you can't, you may need to distance oneself for everyone's sake.

Also, keep in mind that someone with BPD may have relatively normal relationships in some spheres of their life (at work, for example), but have real problems in one or more other areas (such as with family, friends, or romantic relationships). Someone with BPD may be able to maintain some healthy relationships, and writing such a person off because they are unhealthy in another sphere may be unfair. Conversely, being a pollyanna and ignoring patterns in previous/other relationships is not reality based. Staying aware of relationship dynamics is important. If someone thinks you walk on water, chances are that view isn't going to last forever. With borderlines, you may go from being wonderful saint to horrible betrayer in seconds.

MBTI-wise, I suspect that Judgers, and particularly SJs, may have a real advantage when dealing with people who suffer from BPD, since both monitoring and consistency come naturally to them. For Perceivers, it may be tough to monitor and enforce limits with the needed consistency over time. Being adaptive and go-with-the-flow isn't always a plus when dealing with a person with BPD.

You are really smart! :)
 

AzulEyes

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Have you known this friend long? If you haven't been friends with her long enough to notice a pattern it could be lots of other things. For example, bipolar can look a lot like BPD but the person is only behaving that way when in the midst of an episode- and these episodes can be mixed and rapid cycling which confuses things. I've heard PMDD can also look like BPD.

Otherwise, unhealthy enneagram sixes and fours can exhibit borderline symptoms, especially if they are sexual doms. I know I do when unhealthy.

Or it could be BPD. Lots of people have good suggestions as far as that goes. I don't think a person should avoid treatment just because of the stigma. All that does is increase the stigma. If more people are properly diagnosed with mental illness and are open about it it becomes less of a big deal.

I have bipolar disorder. However, I reached the conclusion I needed help myself and I really didn't take kindly to other people telling me I should get help. But I'm that sort of person.

Friends for 2 years- I think an ennagram 8.
I have anxiety and I was in denial too when my doctor was trying to tell me I had it and trying to offer me meds. Until everyone died around me and I was in an accident that involved painful surgery and lost my job. (Ummmm...can anyone say, "Stress?") So yeah- I do understand it's hard to accept when we have a problem.
 

Samvega

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I feel better as some people are stating that being victim and having to be the one to constantly understand the abuser and feel sorry for them is a form of enabling. If you are miserable and drained trying to do this for someone- there comes a time when enough is enough. They must take ownership to ACCEPT the problem lies with them and make an EFFORT for help at which time people who really love them would be happy to surround them and support them and drive them to counseling sessions. But when the very counselors are at a loss and they start to make THEM crazy----

I truly think everyone has their limits in life. And no one should ever enable abusive or twisted behavior. Nor feel guilted into being subjected to twisted realities, dillusions and mental abuse. I probably did the right thing as sad as it is.

It sounds to me like you did the right thing. In my relationship I often found myself saying "it's like there's no room for me in this relationship". I would get upset about an issue or something she was doing and it would always end in me having to comfort her and take care of her followed by me having to take care of whatever my own emotions initially were without her support or input. This was also always followed up with an "if you'd only said it like this" you would have gotten your needs met.

We went to couples therapy but she got zero attention for the "emotional abuse" she was claiming there because she couldn't manipulate her perception onto the therapist with me there. So in addition to the couples therapist, her normal therapist and the two life coaches she was already seeing, she started going to see a free therapist at a woman's crisis center which of course helped her to feel like a complete victim. Keep in mind here, this entire time I'm thinking I'm going insane and I'm emotionally abusive and I'm the problem but self deceived so I'm trying to fix me while she's soaking up all the attention she can for being an abused woman, she even posted it on her facebook wall /:

It's a tough thing to watch play out and there's a pattern that I can clearly see from the outside, not just with me but with her entire life. It's hard to love somebody, know what the issue is and have to walk away because they refuse to see it.

Otherwise, unhealthy enneagram sixes and fours can exhibit borderline symptoms, especially if they are sexual doms. I know I do when unhealthy.

Or it could be BPD. Lots of people have good suggestions as far as that goes. I don't think a person should avoid treatment just because of the stigma. All that does is increase the stigma. If more people are properly diagnosed with mental illness and are open about it it becomes less of a big deal.

I have bipolar disorder. However, I reached the conclusion I needed help myself and I really didn't take kindly to other people telling me I should get help. But I'm that sort of person.

I agree with this fully. I'm my case, she was a very unhealthy 4 who thought she was a 5, something I'm finding out is fairly common.
 

AzulEyes

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It sounds to me like you did the right thing. In my relationship I often found myself saying "it's like there's no room for me in this relationship". I would get upset about an issue or something she was doing and it would always end in me having to comfort her and take care of her followed by me having to take care of whatever my own emotions initially were without her support or input. This was also always followed up with an "if you'd only said it like this" you would have gotten your needs met.

We went to couples therapy but she got zero attention for the "emotional abuse" she was claiming there because she couldn't manipulate her perception onto the therapist with me there. So in addition to the couples therapist, her normal therapist and the two life coaches she was already seeing, she started going to see a free therapist at a woman's crisis center which of course helped her to feel like a complete victim. Keep in mind here, this entire time I'm thinking I'm going insane and I'm emotionally abusive and I'm the problem but self deceived so I'm trying to fix me while she's soaking up all the attention she can for being an abused woman, she even posted it on her facebook wall /:

It's a tough thing to watch play out and there's a pattern that I can clearly see from the outside, not just with me but with her entire life. It's hard to love somebody, know what the issue is and have to walk away because they refuse to see it.



I agree with this fully. I'm my case, she was a very unhealthy 4 who thought she was a 5, something I'm finding out is fairly common.

Uggh sorry you went thru that all of it but bolded. ^
You are in a relationship to also get something out of it. Not simply to be someone's caretaker and punching bag. You deserve someone who understands this and can give you what you deserve.
 

Samvega

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Uggh sorry you went thru that all of it but bolded. ^
You are in a relationship to also get something out of it. Not simply to be someone's caretaker and punching bag. You deserve someone who understands this and can give you what you deserve.

I was just sharing my experience so that you would have another option to draw from and so that I couple better process it myself. Thank you for the sympathy but in holding myself accountable I chose to stick around and play things out for my own unhealthy reasons. I am certainly no saint nor am I free of responsibility for the unhealthy outcome. I need to process what I was getting out of a dynamic like that as a healthy person would leave a relationship that wasn't a true partnership.
 

AzulEyes

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I was just sharing my experience so that you would have another option to draw from and so that I couple better process it myself. Thank you for the sympathy but in holding myself accountable I chose to stick around and play things out for my own unhealthy reasons. I am certainly no saint nor am I free of responsibility for the unhealthy outcome. I need to process what I was getting out of a dynamic like that as a healthy person would leave a relationship that wasn't a true partnership.

great points and taking accountability for your own actions. Something we all have to strive to do at all times!
 

Mole

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It's never a good idea to diagnose someone like that.

And yet with no qualifications and no training whatsoever we apply and interpret a personality test (mbti) to ourselves, our families, our friends, celebrities and our pets.
 
N

ndovjtjcaqidthi

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And yet with no qualifications and no training whatsoever we apply and interpret a personality test (mbti) to ourselves, our families, our friends, celebrities and our pets.

Spot on, INFP.
 
S

Society

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so question: how early can someone be diagnosed with this, in terms of age? or rather - what is the difference between someone of a younger age being full borderline and someone just being... well, a teenager? taking things to extreme, testing the boarders, thinking in terms of black & white? a lot of this stuff just seem like stereotypical dumb teenager behavior.
 

prplchknz

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so question: how early can someone be diagnosed with this, in terms of age? or rather - what is the difference between someone of a younger age being full borderline and someone just being... well, a teenager? taking things to extreme, testing the boarders, thinking in terms of black & white? a lot of this stuff just seem like stereotypical dumb teenager behavior.

I believe between 18 and 20 is the earliest it can be diagnosed. I know like 5-6 borderlines, I mean ones that have been officially diagnosed.
 

Starry

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What if someone you are close to is exhibiting many of these traits? Isn't there value in learning about the disorder and related ones to see if there are strategies to help the relationship? That is completely different from going up to a person and declaring a diagnosis.

There is a significant difference between a diagnosis and a concern. I have family members who are married to people who exhibit these behaviors to a point that they are making everyone around them sick. I've read up on it a lot because the information is practical when applied to situations in my life. Who on earth is going to go up to someone and declare a diagnosis? If you don't suspect it and study, how is anyone going to learn coping mechanisms? Yes, you can go to counseling, but they can't diagnosis someone they don't meet, so the most they could do is direct you to information as well, and support your own emotional wreckage that results from it.

We need to support people who are dealing with dysfunctional people.

Hey fia, No matter how hard I try to keep my notifications in order...each day it seems one or two slip by me and so I'm responding late here.

I sometimes have a difficult time understanding your posts/messages and the above is no exception. I get the sense I'm being criticized for something in someway... but what I'm unable to ascertain is whether or not you understood my message to AzulEyes in the first place. I mean, when you say above "That is completely different from going up to a person and declaring a diagnosis." <-When I look at my message I don't know where that comes from...and just to be clear that wasn't my concern. It would be if I got the sense that was what she had in mind to do but I didn't get that vibe from her for whatever reason. Moreover, when you say to me "We need to support people who are dealing with dysfunctional people." I get the sense you feel I was advising against supporting (sorry I can't bring myself to use the phrase 'dysfunctional people') individuals that are experiencing challenges whatever they may be? The last line from my post actually advises she find an alternative way to help her friend...and while I didn't care to back it up at the time...that advice comes by way of some hard fought personal experience. I don't normally enter into these threads...but because of my INFJ sister...I do enter threads entitled Borderline Personality Disorder.

Like any ENFP with Attention Deficit Disorder...I lost count of how many times I changed majors. I started out in Psychology though...kicking some serious butt when it came to diagnosis (seriously I should have stuck with it - I was an ENFP idiot after my first major change.) And of course I was thrilled to finally figure out what disorder it was my sister had been struggling with for some time. I never said this to her though. But I ran right out and purchased 18 copies of the BPD classic "Walking On Eggshells" and distributed it to all other family members. Now, did getting everyone in my family all up to speed on BPD do anything to assist anyone let alone my sister? No. In spite of the best intentions on the part of my family...all it seemed to do was set up this weird dynamic of inequality towards my sister in this "we know what's best for you...we know you better than yourself...we understand what you are doing better than you understand what you are doing..." and in my opinion her behavior became even more combative - not less. And all of this came before the word BPD was ever spoken.

^^This is not uncommon - at all. Families, friends, etc. making their loved one's burdens more difficult to bear in this way. Again, completely unintentionally.

Today, I am once again working as a volunteer counselor/mentor in a state sponsored program for youth in the juvenile corrections system...and from my experience working with a variety of different conditions... get a professional diagnosis first...and then begin your studies alongside the loved one. Prior to that...being a strong individual with a general understanding of the human condition, compassion and healthy boundaries <-that seems to be more helpful in supporting your loved one...and encouraging them to seek out some professional assessment and treatment, etc. than anything you might come across browsing the internet. This is just my advice though. And would be the advice of so many of the people I've met on my journey. Each person will need to make their own decisions though - for themselves.

My sister received her BPD diagnosis maybe 5 years after I noticed it in her... and I can honestly say...learning everything there is/was to know about BPD was completely useless.

*edit: It's also a tricky thing to know what role a friend should take on in another individual's struggle as there are so many varying degrees of closeness, etc. idk. The OP ended her friendship though...so none of this matters anymore.

*edit 2: I was thinking when you say this---> "We need to support people who are dealing with dysfunctional people." are you suggesting I wasn't supporting AzulEyes? I don't even know what to say...but you don't know what words I have or have not had with her off the forum. Still, the advice I gave her publicly...I'm very comfortable with. And I gave it with her and her friend in mind.
 

_eric_

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Samvega, your description reminds me SO much of how things were with my ex/first girlfriend, who I was with for 3 years. Eerily similar in some respects. She broke up with me, and several months later decided we should never talk again. (It's a long story, not going into any details.) At that point I thought to myself, screw it, I have nothing else to lose, and suggested to her that she might have BPD (I was very respectful about it though, even after everything I still care about her and would never use that as something to try to hurt her.). She then looked it up and surprisingly agreed very strongly and said that there is not one thing about it that isn't like her, and that it fits her better than anything else like depression, anxiety, etc. She has no health insurance and can't get any sort of help for it though, which sucks, I really want her to do well.

I certainly wasn't perfect, but I did my very best and put in so much effort into making things work, but it ended up never being enough because of her issues. Even with the most patient, calm, stable, understanding, supportive people, it can still be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to deal with people who have it if you are in a close relationship with them. At least with her acknowledging [at the very least] the strong possibility of having BPD (again, no insurance, so can't get a diagnosis, but BPD is the best fit...), that does help me feel better about her breaking up with me in that it is a reassurance that I am not as 'bad' as she quite often claimed I was. As with you, Samvega, she also claimed that I 'emotionally abused' her. (What a joke, it was the other way around and she was incapable of seeing it.) It's good to see that I am not alone in having dealt with all that mess. Never again...:(

As a side note, she is an INFP 4w3 sp/sx.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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If you saw someone vomiting, would you go up to him and tell him he might have stomach cancer? Of course not. That should be left to a doctor.

Oddly, when it comes to mental illnesses, people are less hesitant to provide diagnoses.

MBTI is a description, not a diagnosis, so the same does not apply here. Some people just object to it because it makes them feel less special, even though they share a lot in common with the other people who dislike it because it makes them feel less special.

Some people seem to use mental disorders as a substitute for actually bothering to understand people different from them. Usually, when I see someone engaging in this kind of hasty diagnosis, this is what appears to be going on. That's not what it's supposed to be for.
 
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