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  1. #21
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    "wrong" isn't quite the word i would use, but if they are among the 30% BPDs who also have NPD or show any signs of narcissistic injury, then it might just not be very effective - i mean telling someone that is one hell of a loaded criticism for them to not be able to take...

    but when/if you do, their might be some worth in trying to frame it in an affirming manner:
    - saying "i think you have BPD" can come across as you saying there's something wrong with them and who they are...
    - alternatively, saying "i think you might suffer from BPD" might imply they are victims of a condition out of their control.
    they could be more accepting of the later then of the first.

    however, if they do have it, then becoming aware of it can actually help them a great deal - i believe there are medications that can help boarderline's with the mood instability as well as decrease the chances of psychotic breakdowns. it's not a perfect treatment, but it can help her/him gain more control of their lives, both internally and externally (which would in turn be helpful for anyone in their lives).
    thank you- really does make sense.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    BPD can develope and behave in lot of ways. One can have love/hate relationship with others, or the negative feelings are turned against that person. Their problem is, that they are not able to see more than one angle of person/thing/belief... So if the person acts once bad to them, they categorize this person as bad, even though he might have tons of amazing characteristics. They tend to be idealistic about their relationship, they idealize one person as "god" and when the person no longer satisfy their idealized expectations, he is categorized as bad and they move on to another person, or throw themselves to sex adventures, binges, crazy shopping and might seem like out of control. This is really important... 1. unstable love/hate relationship with others , 2. out of control behavior... They just go throught extrems... love, hate, binges, starving, biggest party, depression, excitement, burn out... this called borderline for a reason, because people just really struggle to find that final line, where things are still healthy and good and when things are just no longer under their control. A lot of people with BPD might appear as bipolar, but their moods switch in minutes, or hours, while for people with bipolar it might take years to switch from one mood to another. BPD people are also usually extremly over sensitive when it comes to rejection or reactions of others on their self. They are not able to create an inner identity, they just feel empty inside, so all they have is the opinion of others about themselves. The feelings of inner emptiness also tend to be chronic and unchanging. I agree with everyone here, you can't diagnose a person just like that. BPD is complex and hard to understand
    That inner emptiness sounds awful. And though it helps me so much that everyone seems to agree we are not doctors and certainly not fit to diagnose people. I get that. I am by no means a doctor. But what that also means is the people in the lives of a person who is extremely difficult to communicate with or even ultimately maintain a friendship with- is between a rock and a hard place.

    -walking on egg shells
    -already to the point where I ended the friendship out of absoutely no choice- my back against the wall
    -can't say anything more as I am just an armchair ex-friend at this point
    -person will continue to suffer

    Sucks
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  3. #23
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What if someone you are close to is exhibiting many of these traits? Isn't there value in learning about the disorder and related ones to see if there are strategies to help the relationship? That is completely different from going up to a person and declaring a diagnosis.

    There is a significant difference between a diagnosis and a concern. I have family members who are married to people who exhibit these behaviors to a point that they are making everyone around them sick. I've read up on it a lot because the information is practical when applied to situations in my life. Who on earth is going to go up to someone and declare a diagnosis? If you don't suspect it and study, how is anyone going to learn coping mechanisms? Yes, you can go to counseling, but they can't diagnosis someone they don't meet, so the most they could do is direct you to information as well, and support your own emotional wreckage that results from it.

    We need to support people who are dealing with dysfunctional people.

    I wouldn't suggest a diagnosis, but just look at the emotional imbalances exhibited. I would be more likely to say to the friend that he seems to suffer emotionally for [name the specific issues he deals with] and that he could likely benefit from counseling. If he has self-loathing, or thinks all good or bad about others, then focus on those specific behaviors as the issue and not a label.
    Thank you- yes. I actually don't see this person seeking help. (Perhaps there is a chance- but if they did- they would certainly not let on to anyone. They are very firm of maintaining an outward persona to the world of being-in-control.)

    So to play devil's advocate, if they never seek help- which like I said, I feel very skeptical they would, this will never be addressed unless a loving friend points them to some help or somehow they start to figure it out themselves and seek help which is highly unlikely. So thank you for this. Though all the comments here are helpful- telling me I have to continue to suffer and I'm not a professional gives me like no options except what I have essentially already done a few days ago. Sent my friend packing.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    I have been doing a lot of research on this for many reasons, at the top of the list, knowing how to avoid relationships with people that are unhealthy and trying to better understand why I seek those types of relationships. This is very common among abusive women, they're typically incredibly self deceived and they're often excellent at finding people that are susceptible to their forms of manipulation. Additionally, they're very defensive towards anything that can lift the reality illusion they're hiding behind and will often convince you that you're the issue or the cause of their choices and actions. Much of the time those with cluster B personality disorders like HPD, BPD, NPD, and so on are high functioning seemingly completely normal people and as a result the people they pull into their web are otherwise normal, functional, healthy people.

    I recently got out of a relationship with a woman that exhibited the majority of behaviors associated with HPD and it was one heck of a ride even for me and I have solid boundaries.

    As an ENTP, she played into my desire to "problem solve" and I wouldn't have otherwise been with her as I can see now that the dust has settled she had nothing to contribute to my life, a healthy relationship and is incapable of a true partnership with anybody including herself without first addressing some things internally.

    I would have zero hesitations about being friends with somebody dealing with this provided my emotional needs were in no way attached to them. I would be certain to maintain very firm boundaries and never enable their negative behaviors. I would also have a rule about no negativity or victim behaviors, to them it is like crack for a crack addict and I wouldn't enable it.

    Those are my thoughts, I wouldn't give up on a friendship, I would simply educate yourself on how to be the best possible friend for them.
    Wow- this is so very helpful. Sorry you endured that. And sounds like really only emotionally strong people with integrity can maintain any type of relationship with those suffering like this.

    The no-negativity boundary is amazing. This puts a dead stop to turning the table and making the 'victim' seem like they are crazy. I have questioned my own sanity on several occasions. Great advice- thank you so much.

    I don't want to give up on them. I seriously had no choice when my own dignity was on the line. I won't be completely oppressed by a person- even a sick one and out of sympathy for them. In that state- I can't help them anyway. I'm hoping they emerge from their current dizzying state of emotion and reach back out to me. Else- I may never talk to them again actually. Sad
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  5. #25
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Just read some GREAT reviews and comments for books on BPD on Amazon. I feel better as some people are stating that being victim and having to be the one to constantly understand the abuser and feel sorry for them is a form of enabling. If you are miserable and drained trying to do this for someone- there comes a time when enough is enough. They must take ownership to ACCEPT the problem lies with them and make an EFFORT for help at which time people who really love them would be happy to surround them and support them and drive them to counseling sessions. But when the very counselors are at a loss and they start to make THEM crazy----

    I truly think everyone has their limits in life. And no one should ever enable abusive or twisted behavior. Nor feel guilted into being subjected to twisted realities, dillusions and mental abuse. I probably did the right thing as sad as it is.
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  6. #26
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    Just read some GREAT reviews and comments for books on BPD on Amazon. I feel better as some people are stating that being victim and having to be the one to constantly understand the abuser and feel sorry for them is a form of enabling. If you are miserable and drained trying to do this for someone- there comes a time when enough is enough. They must take ownership to ACCEPT the problem lies with them and make an EFFORT for help at which time people who really love them would be happy to surround them and support them and drive them to counseling sessions. But when the very counselors are at a loss and they start to make THEM crazy----

    I truly think everyone has their limits in life. And no one should ever enable abusive or twisted behavior. Nor feel guilted into being subjected to twisted realities, dillusions and mental abuse. I probably did the right thing as sad as it is.
    I think it's a tough line to walk with people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. On the one hand, their suffering is real and they are deserving of love and support. On the other hand, one has to know one's limits (and enforce them) when dealing with folks with BPD. It can be tough to remain engaged, since one can tend to feel angry and manipulated in response. Expressing an angry response is generally unhelpful to someone with BPD, so it's important to know one's limits for dealing with things calmly. One has to be able to calmly wait out the reactive storms when they are triggered. If you can't, you may need to distance oneself for everyone's sake.

    Also, keep in mind that someone with BPD may have relatively normal relationships in some spheres of their life (at work, for example), but have real problems in one or more other areas (such as with family, friends, or romantic relationships). Someone with BPD may be able to maintain some healthy relationships, and writing such a person off because they are unhealthy in another sphere may be unfair. Conversely, being a pollyanna and ignoring patterns in previous/other relationships is not reality based. Staying aware of relationship dynamics is important. If someone thinks you walk on water, chances are that view isn't going to last forever. With borderlines, you may go from being wonderful saint to horrible betrayer in seconds.

    MBTI-wise, I suspect that Judgers, and particularly SJs, may have a real advantage when dealing with people who suffer from BPD, since both monitoring and consistency come naturally to them. For Perceivers, it may be tough to monitor and enforce limits with the needed consistency over time. Being adaptive and go-with-the-flow isn't always a plus when dealing with a person with BPD.

  7. #27
    brainheart
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    Have you known this friend long? If you haven't been friends with her long enough to notice a pattern it could be lots of other things. For example, bipolar can look a lot like BPD but the person is only behaving that way when in the midst of an episode- and these episodes can be mixed and rapid cycling which confuses things. I've heard PMDD can also look like BPD.

    Otherwise, unhealthy enneagram sixes and fours can exhibit borderline symptoms, especially if they are sexual doms. I know I do when unhealthy.

    Or it could be BPD. Lots of people have good suggestions as far as that goes. I don't think a person should avoid treatment just because of the stigma. All that does is increase the stigma. If more people are properly diagnosed with mental illness and are open about it it becomes less of a big deal.

    I have bipolar disorder. However, I reached the conclusion I needed help myself and I really didn't take kindly to other people telling me I should get help. But I'm that sort of person.

  8. #28
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think it's a tough line to walk with people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. On the one hand, their suffering is real and they are deserving of love and support. On the other hand, one has to know one's limits (and enforce them) when dealing with folks with BPD. It can be tough to remain engaged, since one can tend to feel angry and manipulated in response. Expressing an angry response is generally unhelpful to someone with BPD, so it's important to know one's limits for dealing with things calmly. One has to be able to calmly wait out the reactive storms when they are triggered. If you can't, you may need to distance oneself for everyone's sake.

    Also, keep in mind that someone with BPD may have relatively normal relationships in some spheres of their life (at work, for example), but have real problems in one or more other areas (such as with family, friends, or romantic relationships). Someone with BPD may be able to maintain some healthy relationships, and writing such a person off because they are unhealthy in another sphere may be unfair. Conversely, being a pollyanna and ignoring patterns in previous/other relationships is not reality based. Staying aware of relationship dynamics is important. If someone thinks you walk on water, chances are that view isn't going to last forever. With borderlines, you may go from being wonderful saint to horrible betrayer in seconds.

    MBTI-wise, I suspect that Judgers, and particularly SJs, may have a real advantage when dealing with people who suffer from BPD, since both monitoring and consistency come naturally to them. For Perceivers, it may be tough to monitor and enforce limits with the needed consistency over time. Being adaptive and go-with-the-flow isn't always a plus when dealing with a person with BPD.
    You are really smart!
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  9. #29
    Senior Member AzulEyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Have you known this friend long? If you haven't been friends with her long enough to notice a pattern it could be lots of other things. For example, bipolar can look a lot like BPD but the person is only behaving that way when in the midst of an episode- and these episodes can be mixed and rapid cycling which confuses things. I've heard PMDD can also look like BPD.

    Otherwise, unhealthy enneagram sixes and fours can exhibit borderline symptoms, especially if they are sexual doms. I know I do when unhealthy.

    Or it could be BPD. Lots of people have good suggestions as far as that goes. I don't think a person should avoid treatment just because of the stigma. All that does is increase the stigma. If more people are properly diagnosed with mental illness and are open about it it becomes less of a big deal.

    I have bipolar disorder. However, I reached the conclusion I needed help myself and I really didn't take kindly to other people telling me I should get help. But I'm that sort of person.
    Friends for 2 years- I think an ennagram 8.
    I have anxiety and I was in denial too when my doctor was trying to tell me I had it and trying to offer me meds. Until everyone died around me and I was in an accident that involved painful surgery and lost my job. (Ummmm...can anyone say, "Stress?") So yeah- I do understand it's hard to accept when we have a problem.
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  10. #30
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzulEyes View Post
    I feel better as some people are stating that being victim and having to be the one to constantly understand the abuser and feel sorry for them is a form of enabling. If you are miserable and drained trying to do this for someone- there comes a time when enough is enough. They must take ownership to ACCEPT the problem lies with them and make an EFFORT for help at which time people who really love them would be happy to surround them and support them and drive them to counseling sessions. But when the very counselors are at a loss and they start to make THEM crazy----

    I truly think everyone has their limits in life. And no one should ever enable abusive or twisted behavior. Nor feel guilted into being subjected to twisted realities, dillusions and mental abuse. I probably did the right thing as sad as it is.
    It sounds to me like you did the right thing. In my relationship I often found myself saying "it's like there's no room for me in this relationship". I would get upset about an issue or something she was doing and it would always end in me having to comfort her and take care of her followed by me having to take care of whatever my own emotions initially were without her support or input. This was also always followed up with an "if you'd only said it like this" you would have gotten your needs met.

    We went to couples therapy but she got zero attention for the "emotional abuse" she was claiming there because she couldn't manipulate her perception onto the therapist with me there. So in addition to the couples therapist, her normal therapist and the two life coaches she was already seeing, she started going to see a free therapist at a woman's crisis center which of course helped her to feel like a complete victim. Keep in mind here, this entire time I'm thinking I'm going insane and I'm emotionally abusive and I'm the problem but self deceived so I'm trying to fix me while she's soaking up all the attention she can for being an abused woman, she even posted it on her facebook wall /:

    It's a tough thing to watch play out and there's a pattern that I can clearly see from the outside, not just with me but with her entire life. It's hard to love somebody, know what the issue is and have to walk away because they refuse to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Otherwise, unhealthy enneagram sixes and fours can exhibit borderline symptoms, especially if they are sexual doms. I know I do when unhealthy.

    Or it could be BPD. Lots of people have good suggestions as far as that goes. I don't think a person should avoid treatment just because of the stigma. All that does is increase the stigma. If more people are properly diagnosed with mental illness and are open about it it becomes less of a big deal.

    I have bipolar disorder. However, I reached the conclusion I needed help myself and I really didn't take kindly to other people telling me I should get help. But I'm that sort of person.
    I agree with this fully. I'm my case, she was a very unhealthy 4 who thought she was a 5, something I'm finding out is fairly common.

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