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Thread: Socionics and MBTI

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    Soul Array Inis Mona's Avatar
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    Default Socionics and MBTI

    I try to get a bit more into socionics theory. I've noticed a lot of people say that the correlation between MBTI and socionics is just theoretical and your MBTI type doesn't have to suggest your socionics type. I have a question... How is it possible? Socionics uses 8 functions to describe the types, MBTI uses 8 cognitive functions, so how is it possible, that when a person is for example an INFJ in MBTI he can be an ENFp in socionics? INFJ in MBTI uses Ni+Fe while ENFp in socionics uses Ne+Fi. How is it possible that a person can use Ne+Fi in one typology and Ni+Fe in the other? Functions are functions no metter what typology it is. Or am I wrong? I just think if someone is an INFJ in MBTI he has to be an INFp in socionics because of the functions (INFJ Ni+Fe, INFp Ni+Fe).
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    Honor Thy Inferior Array Such Irony's Avatar
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    The J and P mean different things in the two theories. In MBTI, ExxJ types have a dominant judging function (Te or Fe) and ExxP types have a dominant perceiving function (Ne or Se). In introverts though, IxxJ types have a dominant perceiving function (Ni or Si) but their auxiliary function is a judging one (Te or Fe). With IxxP types, they actually have a dominant judging function (Ti or Fi) and their auxiliary function is perceiving (Ne or Se).

    Socionics actually clears up this confusion so that all j types will have a dominant function regardless of whether they are introverts or extraverts. Similarly all socionics p types have a dominant perceiving function and it applies to be introverts and extraverts.

    So MBTI INTP actually uses the same functions as socionics INTj and MBTI INTJ uses the same functions as socionics INTp.

    However, not all MBTI INTPs are socionics INTjs. With MBTI INTPs it seems there are just as many who are socionics INTps and even some who are neither INTj or INTp. Socionics also defines the functions themselves somewhat differently than MBTI so its possible to be different types with different functions in the two systems.
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    Senior Member Array sulfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I try to get a bit more into socionics theory. I've noticed a lot of people say that the correlation between MBTI and socionics is just theoretical and your MBTI type doesn't have to suggest your socionics type. I have a question... How is it possible? Socionics uses 8 functions to describe the types, MBTI uses 8 cognitive functions, so how is it possible, that when a person is for example an INFJ in MBTI he can be an ENFp in socionics? INFJ in MBTI uses Ni+Fe while ENFp in socionics uses Ne+Fi. How is it possible that a person can use Ne+Fi in one typology and Ni+Fe in the other? Functions are functions no metter what typology it is. Or am I wrong? I just think if someone is an INFJ in MBTI he has to be an INFp in socionics because of the functions (INFJ Ni+Fe, INFp Ni+Fe).
    It's because Socionics definition of information elements differs from that of MBTI. For example Si in MBTI is related to memory and good eye for detail, while Si in Socionics is related to comfort and health. Some people think that these definitions are sufficiently different to warrant saying that these are completely different typologies.

    These are socionics elements: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lements-Primer
    You can compare them to MBTI.

    My personal experience has been that they are very much alike, despite a few differing definitions, and most have either functionally same or closely related type if they have actually studied both well.

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    The difference is that the people who devised Socionics had a greater understanding of Jungs work, and drew from Chinese philosophy and the I ching, and other esoteric stuff, just like Jung did. They understood what Jung meant by introverted sensing, that it was energy focused inward, on the inner sensations. Myers brigs didn't understand that. They just took a guess and said "memory and details?" "yeah lets call Si memory and details"
    They got the characters right, the Duty Fulfiller still fulfills their duty, the Mechanic still has a cold heart and the Artist still likes to smell the pretty flowers. But they didn't know what mechanisms made their characters tick. They could tell the Mechanic was a Swatch watch, they just didn't know how all the little springs and pieces worked together. The Socionics people were Russian, so would have had a more intuitive understanding of Asian philosophy. They understood it better, and that's why they went a lot deeper in developing the theory. And that's why Si is one thing in mbti and another in Socionics.

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    Senior Member Array lunareclipze's Avatar
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    I don't know. But I'm pretty sure I'm ISFP on the MBTI and a INFp on the socionics. Then again i very well could be an INFP on the mbti (i really dont know which one i am)
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    One of the differences between isfp and infp, whether you're talking about mbti or socionics, is that an isfp will focus more on concrete reality, such as the sensations they feel when they smell an orange and they'll try to capture these beautiful sensations in art and music and cooking. Whereas an infp (mbti or socionics) will dwell more in the abstract world of fantasy. Their art will be more concerned with effecting peoples souls rather than their bodily sensations.

    Infp's (mbti or socionics) will walk into things more often than an isfp. They walk into things because they are off in dream land most of the time. Isfp's like being in dreamland too, but they are aware of their surroundings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I try to get a bit more into socionics theory. I've noticed a lot of people say that the correlation between MBTI and socionics is just theoretical and your MBTI type doesn't have to suggest your socionics type. I have a question... How is it possible? Socionics uses 8 functions to describe the types, MBTI uses 8 cognitive functions, so how is it possible, that when a person is for example an INFJ in MBTI he can be an ENFp in socionics? INFJ in MBTI uses Ni+Fe while ENFp in socionics uses Ne+Fi. How is it possible that a person can use Ne+Fi in one typology and Ni+Fe in the other? Functions are functions no metter what typology it is. Or am I wrong? I just think if someone is an INFJ in MBTI he has to be an INFp in socionics because of the functions (INFJ Ni+Fe, INFp Ni+Fe).
    Its not.

    also for some reason I suspect you are an IEI just based on your self type mbti + the format of your questions indicates Ti.

    The thing you will learn over time is that mbti function descriptions are garbage. Complete garbage. They overlap, they don't make any sense and there is no consistency between the extroverts and the introverts.

    One example being Fe vs Fi. One website, of which I'm too lazy to link, lists Fi as "hard to describe, and likes to connect with others" while Fe is "ethical norms."

    This is like saying an apple isn't an orange because its not a vegetable. The relation is ultimately completely pointless.

    Socionics, however, makes the distinction and labels the functions as Fe = objective ethics, Fi = subjective ethics. So Fi is subjective because it is created INTERNALLY to the individual. Objective ethics are created externally, because everyone can see them and agree upon them, they are inarguable. This also lends to the fact that Fe doms need verbal affirmation and Fi doms generally assume the emotional state of another person. Both have their plus and minuses. So when you take this information into account, you'll realize there are reasons certain mbti types have stereotypes the way they do. One example being ISTP vs ISTJ. both are mechanically inclined and independant. But because ISTP's have Ti, they tend to solve problems on their own, while ISTJ's prefer to recall experience and knowledge they already had. Likewise, ISTP's have Se, which tends to make them more aggressive and offensive as they very quickly identify objective sensory data and sieze the opportunity, while introverted sensors tend to have a more defensive stance and lash out due to "percieved threats" that may or may not ACTUALLY exist.

    Personalitypage.com also lists ISTP's as being stubborn. This is due to having a dominant Ti judging function which basically means, they've usually thought about something way more than everyone else has, so changing their mind will be difficult. This also makes them act more judgy. Though, for some reason people mistakenly believe the P in ISTP has relevance, when it actually has zero relevance. So people think ISTP's are "go with the flow" or they're in the moment.

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    There's also a tendency for socionics personalities to interpret their differing subtype as an MBTI J/P swap. So for example, LSI-Se seth green vs LSI-Ti Celebok (youtube)

    Both are TiSe, but it doesn't look that way. Likewise, I am the same personality as the old spice guy, but while he is SLE-Se, i am SLE-Ti. We are both SeTi personalities, but have taken a different position in life. I suspect enneagram plays a large part in the differences as well, as my fear of being harmed or controlled requires me to take a much more calculated and meticulous approach to make sure I am in control of my environment and have influence on everyone around me, while a typical SLE-Se 7 needs to become more meticulous and has lived a lifestyle of unrestricted impulse.

  9. #9
    Soul Array Inis Mona's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Its not.

    also for some reason I suspect you are an IEI just based on your self type mbti + the format of your questions indicates Ti.

    The thing you will learn over time is that mbti function descriptions are garbage. Complete garbage. They overlap, they don't make any sense and there is no consistency between the extroverts and the introverts.

    One example being Fe vs Fi. One website, of which I'm too lazy to link, lists Fi as "hard to describe, and likes to connect with others" while Fe is "ethical norms."

    This is like saying an apple isn't an orange because its not a vegetable. The relation is ultimately completely pointless.

    Socionics, however, makes the distinction and labels the functions as Fe = objective ethics, Fi = subjective ethics. So Fi is subjective because it is created INTERNALLY to the individual. Objective ethics are created externally, because everyone can see them and agree upon them, they are inarguable. This also lends to the fact that Fe doms need verbal affirmation and Fi doms generally assume the emotional state of another person. Both have their plus and minuses. So when you take this information into account, you'll realize there are reasons certain mbti types have stereotypes the way they do. One example being ISTP vs ISTJ. both are mechanically inclined and independant. But because ISTP's have Ti, they tend to solve problems on their own, while ISTJ's prefer to recall experience and knowledge they already had. Likewise, ISTP's have Se, which tends to make them more aggressive and offensive as they very quickly identify objective sensory data and sieze the opportunity, while introverted sensors tend to have a more defensive stance and lash out due to "percieved threats" that may or may not ACTUALLY exist.

    Personalitypage.com also lists ISTP's as being stubborn. This is due to having a dominant Ti judging function which basically means, they've usually thought about something way more than everyone else has, so changing their mind will be difficult. This also makes them act more judgy. Though, for some reason people mistakenly believe the P in ISTP has relevance, when it actually has zero relevance. So people think ISTP's are "go with the flow" or they're in the moment.
    I know the functions pretty well...my question was not how functions work. My question was: Does an INFJ (Ni+Fe) have to be an INFp (Ni+Fe) in socionics? I know how functions work, I read MBTI descriptions, I read socionics. MBTI and socionics are a bit different, but have a common ground. It's doesn't matter if you say "the fruit that taste like orange", or "an orange" so the differecnes in function descriptions are not important if they share the common ground and if they basicly describe the same thing. Fe-ethical norms and Fe- objective ethics are basicly the same things. The person values and share the ethics, that exist externaly, that means objectvily and not subjectivly in his enviroment...You know...subject the person/my own self, internal, vs. object something outstide of myself, something external. The same is with Te vs. Ti. It's natural, that someone with introverted judging function, will be more stubborn, than the person with extroveter judging function... I think socionics and MBTI are like when a granny talks to her granddaughter, they both might talk about the same thing, but granny uses the words, that for young granddaughter sounds old and strange and she doesn't really understand, what granny wanted to say. So the granddaughter will say the same things, with the words, that are close to her personality and to her age, but they might by talking about 100% same thing. So Ni is Ni also in MBTI and aslo in socionics, but maybe said with different words. So Ni+Fe in MBTI has to be Ni+Fe in socionics? Or am I wrong? I know, that we all are Se+Ti to some point as much as we all are Ni+Fe to some point, but the function order makes the difference. When the difference is once set in one typology it can't be different in another one...or can it be? This is just my point...how much are the MBTI and socionics similar? If they are not as similar as I think, then why? How? Bonus question: Why do you see Ti in my questions? I am typed as ENFP, I don't think they use much of a Ti.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunareclipze View Post
    I don't know. But I'm pretty sure I'm ISFP on the MBTI and a INFp on the socionics. Then again i very well could be an INFP on the mbti (i really dont know which one i am)
    I think ISFP and INFp make much better sense, than INFP and INFp...Even though INFp in socionics is closest to INFJ in MBTI INFJ and ISFP share common function: Se, Ni. But I don't think one can be a sensor in MBTI and dominant inuitive in socionics.
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