User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 53

  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,994

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Are you actually interested in productive conversation, or do you just get a kick out of straw men? Because I'm feeling like you really just enjoy shooting down individual statements and don't really care about what comes of the whole issue. IRT will, will is not given. It's inherent.

    Regardless, I'm in this conversation because I'm interested in how society can provide appropriate mental health care to people with schizophrenia and other mental illnesses or physiological conditions that impair mental functioning while still respecting their individual rights.

    Why are you in this conversation?
    You do understand that "mental functioning" includes will, correct? And do you understand that "society" is a vague generality that includes many, many people who care nothing for the subject of caring for the mentally ill?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You do understand that "mental functioning" includes will, correct? And do you understand that "society" is a vague generality that includes many, many people who care nothing for the subject of caring for the mentally ill?
    Sure, and I'm still not seeing why you're bothering to write this stuff. Semantics are semantics. They'll never be perfect. I dunno about you, but I'm going into healthcare as my career, and my opinion is going to influence, however tiny that influence may be, the way that mentally ill people are treated. Regardless of whether people care or not, their stance on all of this does have an impact on the lives of many. Your stance has an impact on the lives of many. I'm not interested in just breaking the issue into its semantic bits because it's going to get us nowhere in terms of actually effecting the best change possible in the world. I only have one life to live and only so many hours in the day. I'm baffled by why you'd want to linger and pick apart terms and definitions when it's going to be such a slow process that it's never going to have any actual impact on the world.

    Dom Ti and tert Te, I guess.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,994

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Sure, and I'm still not seeing why you're bothering to write this stuff. Semantics are semantics. They'll never be perfect. I dunno about you, but I'm going into healthcare as my career, and my opinion is going to influence, however tiny that influence may be, the way that mentally ill people are treated. Regardless of whether people care or not, their stance on all of this does have an impact on the lives of many. Your stance has an impact on the lives of many. I'm not interested in just breaking the issue into its semantic bits because it's going to get us nowhere in terms of actually effecting the best change possible in the world. I only have one life to live and only so many hours in the day. I'm baffled by why you'd want to linger and pick apart terms and definitions when it's going to be such a slow process that it's never going to have any actual impact on the world.

    Dom Ti and tert Te, I guess.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundame...ribution_error
    "In social psychology, the fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or attribution effect) is the tendency to overestimate the effect of disposition or personality and underestimate the effect of the situation in explaining social behavior."

    Many Ti-doms have had a very tremendous impact one the world. Personality doesn't matter, it's just the face we present to the world, and a lot of that is dependent upon the environments we grow up in.

    Ti-doms excel in (or like to think they excel in) logic. You've presented arguments, and the best way to deal with arguments is not by dealing with semantics but with the logic employed in the arguments. If the logic is bad, then your argument does not correspond with your Te-tert reality, but only with justifying the way you Fi-aux happen to feel about things.

    Despite their bad logic, I've found that ENFPs are really, really good in bed. And that's not a fundamental attribution error, that's from experience.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    353

    Default

    I personally think it's quite straightforward, and I almost fully agree with the position of the doctor I quoted in my original post.

    Let's consider a very specific case: A person has schizophrenia but doesn't recognize something is wrong with them, even when they are on meds. Since they think they are normal they stop taking their meds. However, every time they stop taking their meds they permanently damage their brain, increasing the severity of their schizophrenia. A kind of negative feedback loop. In this situation, it seems quite straightforward to argue that it is ethical to grind up their prednisone, put it in a piece of cake and feed it to them, forcefully if necessary. They don't even think anything is wrong with them. That's how messed up they are. Feeding them sanity cake is our duty under the social contract. We brought them into this world with the implicit promise that it would fun and awesome and we would nurture them and they could enjoy reality. Now they are deluded and can't even understand reality and we ignore them. Just let me feed them the cake! It's the right thing to do! What kind of evil person leaves an insane person to suffer when they could easily fix them? Answer: All of us, every day.

  5. #35
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundame...ribution_error
    "In social psychology, the fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or attribution effect) is the tendency to overestimate the effect of disposition or personality and underestimate the effect of the situation in explaining social behavior."

    Many Ti-doms have had a very tremendous impact one the world. Personality doesn't matter, it's just the face we present to the world, and a lot of that is dependent upon the environments we grow up in.

    Ti-doms excel in (or like to think they excel in) logic. You've presented arguments, and the best way to deal with arguments is not by dealing with semantics but with the logic employed in the arguments. If the logic is bad, then your argument does not correspond with your Te-tert reality, but only with justifying the way you Fi-aux happen to feel about things.

    Despite their bad logic, I've found that ENFPs are really, really good in bed. And that's not a fundamental attribution error, that's from experience.
    Erg, no, I'm not saying Ti-doms don't impact the world. My dad's a Ti dominant psychiatrist so he directly impacts the very people we're talking about in this thread. I'm saying that my emphasis on wanting to get a practical solution ASAP reeks of Te tert and your emphasis on defining/specifying basic terms is Ti dommish.

    From what I wrote before I guess to me it seems like the real issue is more one of getting money to help people with mental illness and less how to actually help them, which is still a delicate issue but can probably be fairly well-handled by a responsible medical facility overseen by an ethical review board.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,994

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity View Post
    I personally think it's quite straightforward, and I almost fully agree with the position of the doctor I quoted in my original post.

    Let's consider a very specific case: A person has schizophrenia but doesn't recognize something is wrong with them, even when they are on meds. Since they think they are normal they stop taking their meds. However, every time they stop taking their meds they permanently damage their brain, increasing the severity of their schizophrenia. A kind of negative feedback loop. In this situation, it seems quite straightforward to argue that it is ethical to grind up their prednisone, put it in a piece of cake and feed it to them, forcefully if necessary. They don't even think anything is wrong with them. That's how messed up they are. Feeding them sanity cake is our duty under the social contract. We brought them into this world with the implicit promise that it would fun and awesome and we would nurture them and they could enjoy reality. Now they are deluded and can't even understand reality and we ignore them. Just let me feed them the cake! It's the right thing to do! What kind of evil person leaves an insane person to suffer when they could easily fix them? Answer: All of us, every day.
    It's actually a positive feedback loop, since the degree of insanity keeps increasing.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    795

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity View Post
    I personally think it's quite straightforward, and I almost fully agree with the position of the doctor I quoted in my original post.

    Let's consider a very specific case: A person has schizophrenia but doesn't recognize something is wrong with them, even when they are on meds. Since they think they are normal they stop taking their meds. However, every time they stop taking their meds they permanently damage their brain, increasing the severity of their schizophrenia. A kind of negative feedback loop. In this situation, it seems quite straightforward to argue that it is ethical to grind up their prednisone, put it in a piece of cake and feed it to them, forcefully if necessary. They don't even think anything is wrong with them. That's how messed up they are. Feeding them sanity cake is our duty under the social contract. We brought them into this world with the implicit promise that it would fun and awesome and we would nurture them and they could enjoy reality. Now they are deluded and can't even understand reality and we ignore them. Just let me feed them the cake! It's the right thing to do! What kind of evil person leaves an insane person to suffer when they could easily fix them? Answer: All of us, every day.
    They should only be forced if they are a danger to themselves or others. That is, forcing their hand is being done to prevent a murder, assault, or suicide. I'm convinced that many people would take the medication if there weren't so many negative side-effects. I cannot emphasize enough how bad the side effects can be.

    The part about the brain being damaged more if they enter psychosis again is a good bit of information, and should be shared with those suffering from this illness (and will probably go a long way toward helping them find the line of treatment that works best for them). However, it shouldn't be used to force their hand in any way.

    A schizophrenic going on and on about conspiracy theories doesn't bother me. It will mostly be idle ranting that won't result in the harm of anyone. I wouldn't even waste time trying to convince them that their "delusions" aren't real (a lot of Schizophrenics probably started laughing a laugh of victory when Snowden leaked all that information). The violent ones scare me, and it made me sad when I realized that some of them can't control it. What a miserable way to live.

    And it's a funny thing, because usually when I see someone with a mental disorder on OkCupid, or on some other site, they claim the reason they stopped the medication is because it doesn't work, and the side effects are intolerable. So I don't know.

  8. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    353

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CapLawyer View Post
    They should only be forced if they are a danger to themselves or others. That is, forcing their hand is being done to prevent a murder, assault, or suicide. I'm convinced that many people would take the medication if there weren't so many negative side-effects. I cannot emphasize enough how bad the side effects can be.

    The part about the brain being damaged more if they enter psychosis again is a good bit of information, and should be shared with those suffering from this illness (and will probably go a long way toward helping them find the line of treatment that works best for them). However, it shouldn't be used to force their hand in any way.

    A schizophrenic going on and on about conspiracy theories doesn't bother me. It will mostly be idle ranting that won't result in the harm of anyone. I wouldn't even waste time trying to convince them that their "delusions" aren't real (a lot of Schizophrenics probably started laughing a laugh of victory when Snowden leaked all that information). The violent ones scare me, and it made me sad when I realized that some of them can't control it. What a miserable way to live.

    And it's a funny thing, because usually when I see someone with a mental disorder on OkCupid, or on some other site, they claim the reason they stopped the medication is because it doesn't work, and the side effects are intolerable. So I don't know.
    You completely failed to address my argument.

  9. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    353

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Why are you in this conversation?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Despite their bad logic, I've found that ENFPs are really, really good in bed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    So, you wanna get it on or not?
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Heck yeah. If only I had money!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I don't charge anything, believe it or not.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,994

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mingularity View Post
    Is there an emoticon for :jealous:?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-24-2015, 10:57 AM
  2. Fe/Fi and the desire to improve empathy and social abilities?
    By TenebrousReflection in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 12-26-2011, 03:01 PM
  3. [JCF] Ti and the social world
    By Risen in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 12-28-2009, 06:21 AM
  4. [MBTItm] STJs and the social rules
    By sciski in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-01-2009, 04:29 AM
  5. Social entrepreneurship and the business of helping people
    By proteanmix in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 12-09-2008, 02:16 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO