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Can empathy be learned?

Evil Otter

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What I mean is, can someone who is not naturally empathetic learn how to become empathetic?

I kind of think they can learn but only if they see their own deficit and want to learn without seeking any other gains.

What do you think?

Forget learning it, let's just hug it out :hug: and dance :mariobanana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFAdlU2ETjU
Skip to 7:20 if you want, I thought the whole thing was fascinating. Possibly a cure for psychopathy.
 

Evo

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Yes, it is sad. But is seems to me you have trouble with sympathy rather than empathy.

And to feel more comfortable with your sympathy, you may need to meet someone who is able to sympathise with you first.

Or indeed you might like to meet a whole group who can sympathise with you, like an encounter group.

Hmmm. I guess I'm still not grasping the difference between empathy and sympathy...:thinking:
 

Mole

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Hmmm. I guess I'm still not grasping the difference between empathy and sympathy...:thinking:

Ever since I have been here almost everyone has not grasped the distinction between empathy and sympathy.

This is understandable as common usage confuses the two.

And I wouldn't bother to try to correct this confusion if empathy wasn't so uniquely helpful.

But in a way, it is all of a piece, as astrology, mbti and sympathy come naturally and intuitively, while science, mathematics and empathy don't come naturally and are counter-intuitive.

This means that astrology, mbti and sympathy are accessible to the unschooled while science, mathematics and empathy are not accessible to the unschooled.

But who among us is prepared to admit we are unschooled, rather we prefer to sympathise with one another over astrology and mbti.
 

Qlip

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Hmmm. I guess I'm still not grasping the difference between empathy and sympathy...:thinking:

Keep in mind that Mole will give definitions of sympathy and empathy precisely opposite as defined in the dictionary or used by anybody in conversation anywhere.
 

Mole

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Keep in mind that Mole will give definitions of sympathy and empathy precisely opposite as defined in the dictionary or used by anybody in conversation anywhere.

This is untrue.
 

Mole

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Mole

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That's not how I think of empathy. To me empathy is like theory of mind, where you put yourself in the shoes of the other person and experience what they are experiencing. Sympathy is something different, like empathizing with someone's plight and feeling bad for them.

Of course you don't think of empathy this way - you are unschooled and so have to rely upon common misconceptions.
 

Seymour

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Of course you don't think of empathy this way - you are unschooled and so have to rely upon common misconceptions.

I have discovered here that ignorance and vanity sleep in the same bed.

Yes, common misconceptions shared by most English speakers, most dictionaries, wikipedia, and the article on psychopaths in question.
 

Mole

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Yes, common misconceptions shared by most English speakers, most dictionaries, wikipedia, and the article in question.

What chutzpah to rely on common misconceptions. It reminds me of, "The Know Nothing Party" (1845-1860) in the USA, perversely proud of their ignorance.
 

Mole

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There are two kinds of dictionaries, prescriptive like m-w.com, and descriptive like oed.com. Prescriptive dictionaries tell you the definition of something, whereas descriptive dictionaries document how words are actually used over time. I checked both, and in both the definition of empathy was very much like mine, and very much unlike yours. It's definitely OK for you to redefine a word so that others know what you mean when you say it, but it doesn't really make any sense for you to expect anyone else to adopt your definition. If your definition comes to be accepted by society, it will eventually show up in oed.com. In the meantime, you'll have to explicitly redefine it every time you use your version.

I have checked the dictionaries too and find the distinction I have shown here is correct.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Because if psychopaths aren’t capable of guilt or remorse, then why would they ‘switch on’ empathy for any other reason than personal gain?

I just looked up and read about the study. It looks like they can turn it on simply by being asked to turn it on. The bizarre disconnect though is that there’s no conscience tying them to the empathy when that empathy doesn’t feel good. Most people can’t just turn it off. I can imagine instances where empathy shuts off because more information becomes available and changes the circumstances- but most people can’t simply shut empathy off at will. (…Right?)

What I read suggested they might be able to use these findings to figure out how to help psychopaths from causing harm. It’ll be interesting to see if they can actually do that.

I get how what they’re seeing in the results is being called ‘empathy’, per se- but it’s just weird because it isn’t attached to a conscience. It may light up the same parts of the brain, but I'm not sure I'm willing to call it empathy in the most commonly used sense of the word.

We shut off empathy all the time. War, conflict, a fight with a romantic partner, political rivalries. It's all the same as far as I'm concerned, just a matter of degree and boundary.
 

Coriolis

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No. Empathy is earned. Using myself and many INTJ's I know as examples, you're not going to see us give two shits about things we believe aren't worth the effort. Empathy isn't something thinkers can just toss around everywhere, that shit is draining. We have to be selective about it.

If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life. Once you manage to put your ego beneath mine, I suddenly become the most humble and caring person you'll ever meet.

I spent 5 years in the military with people telling me I should "care more." I still have no idea what they were talking about, and when I tried to "care" about things I didn't actually care about, I became neurotic and suicidal. One day I stopped trying, and all my problems went away and I suddenly started making more friends.
Really? No one in the military ever told me to care, but plenty of people in other settings seem to expect it. I sense validity in your comments here, though their expression is unfamiliar. Your first paragraph suggests a deliberateness about our use of empathy that I don't see. Yes, there are thresholds that trigger it, at least in me, as well as lines that, once crossed, can cause me instantly to lose it. But I either have it or I don't; it is not a deliberate, conscious choice. I can choose cognitive empathy - to go though the rational process that allows me to conclude what someone is probably feeling, but that is not the same.

People don't learn empathy they're reminded.

People who don't have it as children are not redeemable and they are pretending to manipulate you. That's why I think the death penalty should exist for sociopaths.
Do you think there are some children who just don't have empathy, and if so, why are they that way?

empathy: the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

I don't identify with others easily. period. :(

The things others care about, compared to what I care about are mostly not the same.

And I definately don't indentify with others' feelings, thoughts, or attitudes.

I have to make a habit of saying to myself:

"Why can't I stand this person?"

From there I have to rationalize to myself...that we all are the same, and we are all just doing our best.

The thought of me even trying to be in someone else's shoes (even just to identify with them or thier experience) is a very difficult thing. I feel like I'll get overwhelmed and never get out of that state. So I avoid it.(E7 ness)

When someone's dog dies, I am not the person to go to.

And I'm the biggest dog lover I know.

The only thing that comes to mind when bad stuff happens to people is "I wouldn't want this to happen to me"
Same for me, mostly, except that I often find small things to identify with in even the most unlikely people, when I am not expecting it. I suppose it is just another reminder that we are more similar underneath than we often think. When bad things happen to people, my first thought is usually, "what can I do about it"? If the answer is nothing, really, I easily move on.

Ever since I have been here almost everyone has not grasped the distinction between empathy and sympathy.

This is understandable as common usage confuses the two.

And I wouldn't bother to try to correct this confusion if empathy wasn't so uniquely helpful.

But in a way, it is all of a piece, as astrology, mbti and sympathy come naturally and intuitively, while science, mathematics and empathy don't come naturally and are counter-intuitive.

This means that astrology, mbti and sympathy are accessible to the unschooled while science, mathematics and empathy are not accessible to the unschooled.

But who among us is prepared to admit we are unschooled, rather we prefer to sympathise with one another over astrology and mbti.
I thought you disliked arguing for the sake of arguing. Should I detect some hypocrisy here?
 

Mole

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It is plain that popular culture has elided the words 'empathy' and 'sympathy' so there is not much difference between them.

However in English the meaning and spelling of words depends on their history.

Unfortunately Noah Webster, the American revolutionary, tried to remove history from English words by changing their spelling.

Noah followed the same revolutionary impulse of Pol Pot in Cambodia in starting from year zero, only Noah wanted revolutionary Engish to start from year zero.

Noah was spectaculary successful in revolutionary USA in influencing the English curriculum of all schools in the USA.

And so Noah Webster created American English all on his own.

And in discounting history in English, Noah created an American habit of mind where history itself is discounted, and so Americans look to the future.

And this explains the lack of interest in the history of the words 'empathy' and 'sympathy'.

So in popular culture we have lost the meaning of the word 'empathy', which is a shame for empathy is uniquely helpful.
 

alcea rosea

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I think people can learn and "internalize" empathy to some extend. I think narsistic and psychopaths/sociopaths can learn about empathic behavior but they don't "internalize" it.
 

Azure Flame

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(I don't call this "submission" btw. I call it back pedalling. Need someone that's gonna give in once in a while and back pedal, cause it shows they care more about the relationship than being right all the time. Fe does this very nicely. ENFJ's do it the most ime, then INFJ's following close behind)

PS (Also just guessing :shrug: but....I think that other people may say that you're an E6 a lot cause that sounds a little like fear of abandonment. Not saying that I think you are E6 or anything, just saying that I know that fear now when I see it, and that could be what you're projecting)

Your syntax could be correcterer than mine. And yes, Fe users tend to do exactly what I'm talking about while Fi doms tend to think there is something they're supposed to be sticking up for.

As far as abandonment issues goes... there isn't any fear of abandonment like any e6 or e4 would express from my end. But I do feel great hurt. My pain threshold is the size of an idiot when I'm not pretending it doesn't exist.
 
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