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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life.
    This is the classic authoritarian position.

    And it is a military position where we first learn to take orders before we can give orders.

    However I for one have not the slightest intention of putting myself under the orders of an authoritarian.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    This is the classic authoritarian position.

    And it is a military position where we first learn to take orders before we can give orders.

    However I for one have not the slightest intention of putting myself under the orders of an authoritarian.
    I respect your stance, but warn that you will never meet what stands behind the facade of an ESTP 8 until you do so. To tell an ESTP to change who they are is to tell a baboon to grow hair on its ugly ass.

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    No. Empathetic people are born sensitive, hardened by life, and retrieve empathy again in some point in adulthood through love.

    Any "asshole" you see becoming empathetic later, their mom will tell you what a sweet, sensitive or emotional child they once were.

    People don't learn empathy they're reminded.

    People who don't have it as children are not redeemable and they are pretending to manipulate you. That's why I think the death penalty should exist for sociopaths.

    God may love you, but that doesn't mean it's safe for you to be around other people.

    Most people can be REMINDED through love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life. Once you manage to put your ego beneath mine, I suddenly become the most humble and caring person you'll ever meet
    This is pretty much the text book definition of NPD. Not ESTP.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    This is pretty much the text book definition of NPD. Not ESTP.
    Sure, its one of the symptoms, doesn't mean its NPD though. Its a test to see if your ego is going to interfere with the relationship. People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested. Being assertive of my own rights as a human is not the same as narcissism.

  6. #76
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Sure, its one of the symptoms, doesn't mean its NPD though. Its a test to see if your ego is going to interfere with the relationship. People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested. Being assertive of my own rights as a human is not the same as narcissism.
    when you say things like "you play by my rules when you enter my life", it suggests a desire to, at least to some degree, control your partner

    when you say things like "people who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make a relationship work", it suggests you place more of the expectation on them rather than wanting to meet them halfway and work with them

    not saying these things for certain (you may have just worded it provocatively. I know I have on several occasions), but both suggest narcissistic tendencies (which are likely the result of your 7 wing)
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  7. #77
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    You know how people feel when they don't want to learn, but you don't feel it yourself - this is called empathy.
    I don't think I know how they feel when they don't want to learn...I have never not wanted to learn<---this is a biased Te/Fi opinion that I have... I think that voids out this example.

    empathy: the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

    I don't identify with others easily. period.

    The things others care about, compared to what I care about are mostly not the same.

    And I definately don't indentify with others' feelings, thoughts, or attitudes.

    I have to make a habit of saying to myself:

    "Why can't I stand this person?"

    From there I have to rationalize to myself...that we all are the same, and we are all just doing our best.

    The thought of me even trying to be in someone else's shoes (even just to identify with them or thier experience) is a very difficult thing. I feel like I'll get overwhelmed and never get out of that state. So I avoid it.(E7 ness)

    When someone's dog dies, I am not the person to go to.

    And I'm the biggest dog lover I know.

    The only thing that comes to mind when bad stuff happens to people is "I wouldn't want this to happen to me"

    I have to take that and use it to get a gist of what others are feeling...but even then it's still hard if I've never experienced it.

    I'm like half robot/half self-absorbed.

    It's sad but true.

    At least I know now, and am working on it. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.

    However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    But the fact is that almost no one learns to empathise unless they are compelled to learn for their job.

    Just as almost no one learns to read and write unless they are compelled by Law to go to school.

    This is because reading and writing and empathising are counter-intuitive and unnatural.
    Regarding these two posts. Are you saying that we all have to learn. Or are you saying that some people, inherently, are just better?

    Because I think it's both.

    Just like the piano, some people need more practice and some naturally have it as a talant.


    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    People who submit are usually mature enough to do what it takes to make the relationship work, and I'm the only person I know who appologizes and admits when he's wrong. I need to make sure the other person is the same before I get emotionally invested
    Yea, tried that.

    Hasn't worked yet.

    Good luck with that though

    (I don't call this "submission" btw. I call it back pedalling. Need someone that's gonna give in once in a while and back pedal, cause it shows they care more about the relationship than being right all the time. Fe does this very nicely. ENFJ's do it the most ime, then INFJ's following close behind)

    PS (Also just guessing but....I think that other people may say that you're an E6 a lot cause that sounds a little like fear of abandonment. Not saying that I think you are E6 or anything, just saying that I know that fear now when I see it, and that could be what you're projecting)
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  8. #78
    morose bourgeoisie
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    I think almost everyone can develop empathy. Mirror neurons seems to be distributed in at least 4 regions of the brain, making it likely that they have been conserved because they provide an evolutionary advantage. And, given their ubiquity in the brain, it seems unlikey that a lack of empathy is created by their absence. Anti-social tendencies, sociopathy, etc, seem therefore to be a product of environmental factors and not exclusively genetic.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    I think almost everyone can develop empathy. Mirror neurons seems to be distributed in at least 4 regions of the brain, making it likely that they have been conserved because they provide an evolutionary advantage. And, given their ubiquity in the brain, it seems unlikey that a lack of empathy is created by their absence. Anti-social tendencies, sociopathy, etc, seem therefore to be a product of environmental factors and not exclusively genetic.
    Mirror neurons make sympathy natural, whereas empathy is unnatural and must be learnt like reading and writing.

    Narcissists are unable to face the fact that they may need to learn and practise before they master empathy.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    It's sad
    Yes, it is sad. But is seems to me you have trouble with sympathy rather than empathy.

    And to feel more comfortable with your sympathy, you may need to meet someone who is able to sympathise with you first.

    Or indeed you might like to meet a whole group who can sympathise with you, like an encounter group.

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