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  1. #61
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    It can be developed.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #62
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    F7 vs T5

    I think it's interesting that as for as the neocortex goes, there are two "mirror neuron" regions (using Nardi's terms):

    F7 - "Imaginative Mimic" - Mirroring other's behavior, imaginatively entering into other situations and "what if" scenarios

    T5 - "Sensitive Mediator" - Noticing and responding to social cues, wondering how others evaluate you, being embarrassed

    I think F7 sounds kind of Ne (with a little F/Fi flavor, as far as mirroring), and T5 sounds somewhat Fe. Nardi did find that FJ was associated with T5, and Ne with F7. But the T5 association was a little more complex (see below).

    Regardless, I do think it's interesting that mirror neurons are divided into who separate regions, both of which might relate to empathy in different ways.

    Nardi and T5 (an aside)

    T5, the region of the neocortex related to attending to social feedback and feeling ashamed/embarrassed, is used heavily by Fe types (and seems to be an obvious fit for at least some qualities we associate with Fe).

    Conversely, ISTPs tended to show the least activity in T5, with some ISTPs never showing any activity in the region no matter how embarrassing the situation in the lab. INTPs generally showed low activity in T5 as well. However, when that region finally activated for INTPs in the lab, it tended to spill over into neighboring speech and movement centers (which may be one reason why most of us, regardless of type, get clumsy and tongue-tied when embarrassed).

    T5 is also used by heavily by male FPs, but far less so by female FPs... but what does that mean (Nardi didn't speculate on that, that I recall)? Could it mean that male FPs tend to feel more socially constrained than female FPs (and so perhaps are less likely to be visibly quirky)? Do male FPs learn to blend socially for some reason (social pressure)?

    Of course, some studies have also shown that men tend to use T5 for facial recognition, which might explain a greater use of T5 in male FPs.
    i think reducing all this empathy stuff to those regions is too simplistic. there are mirror neurons all over the brains, those regions just have a lot of them packed tightly. also they are interacting with areas that are normally used without mirroring. for example there is a region that has to do with motor planning, which happens to be next to the are which mirrors actions of others. this motor planning area next to one of the mirroring areas can be triggered by the mirroring area next to it as if it were triggered by other areas. also when it does fire, it will send signals to areas which are actually responsible for the moving of the arm or what ever. however when the movement of the arm for example gets triggered by the mirror system, its not going to be that strong activation than it would be if you were actually moving the arm. that is because there is signal coming from your arm that is sending signals to the motor areas saying that "im not moving" or "im not being touched", so that you wouldnt think that your arm is moving when someone else is moving their arm.
    this is also to show that any area alone isnt that important when it comes to higher psychic functions, but those functions are a combination of different areas working together in particular manner. for example all that i explained earlier, is only mirroring the other person and not really empathy, unless it triggers some emotional reaction in your that you would associate with the person you are mirroring.

    if you arent very close to your own emotions(or are in some way emotionally retarded), you cant really have well developed empathy(as in for its strength and accuracy). at least for me, my empathy skyrocketed when i got more in tune with my F side. the mirroring part has been there and working just fine from early age(altho doesent come even close to my INFP friend who often automatically makes the same face as you do if you exaggerate it enough ).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #63
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    What I mean is, can someone who is not naturally empathetic learn how to become empathetic?
    IMHO, yes.
    Doing so takes work.
    Some of that work is obvious, such as reading and thinking about the concept of empathy.
    The harder part of that work is talking with others, obtaining their perspectives on empathy, and identifying why they value empathy.
    Hardest still is looking within yourself to develop a concept for something that is not a strong, innate behavior/cognitive thought process.
    If you are able to do that though, then applying one's newly formed concept of empathy to life's phenomena as they occur moving forward is possible, and gets more natural with practice over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I kind of think they can learn but only if they see their own deficit and want to learn without seeking any other gains.
    Agreed. No behavioral change of any kind is possible without the will of the person instituting the change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    What do you think?
    See above please.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Absolutely it can be learned.


    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The only question is if it is learned consciously or subconsciously - much of it is learned by anyone, but for some it isn't an intentional learning process, but just how their family operated or something.
    I like that you've pointed out this distinction.

    Although my Mom and Dad were very present and supportive, they are both very stoic, and thus there was a deficit of me being able to "witness the expression of empathy" in many simple day to day contexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think there are also some instinctual aspects to it like a strong mothering/nurturing instinct makes someone more naturally aware.
    I see this in my children.
    My wife is very empathetic and they have learned this from her, for which I am grateful.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I am required to have empathy for some of my jobs, and so I work at it very intentionally and with significant effort. I think this has helped me progress with it.
    Interesting!
    I did not realize that appropriately expressing empathy in the melee of my career would have any benefit, but it really does.
    People are more prone to commit to your endeavor if they feel that you understand them and their circumstances, and that you know how it feels for them to be doing what they must at that time.
    It's a very subtle but very compelling buttress to having authenticity and being able to project executive presence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    First of all we should define empathy.
    Hot damn!
    I love it when INTPs talk about emotions and feelings & stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    If you mean cognitive empathy, i.e. knowing/understanding what the other person is experiencing: yes

    This can definitely be learned by careful observation. Psychopaths train themselves to read others. People with Asperbergs can learn it, as far as I know.
    Mimicking the behavior of others, always a good means of learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    If you mean affective empathy, i.e. having a (socially) appropriate emotional reaction to another person's emotions, sharing their emotions: probably not
    I think it's possible, but as I noted above, I don't think it's easy.
    Trying to do it is worth it, IMHO.
    It's a growth experience...

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    I think the latter has a lot to do with mirror neurons. Not sure how much of a fixture their strength is, i.e. if you are born with very active mirror centers or if they develope as they are trained.
    My hunch is that a good part of it is either hardwired or set at an early age.
    Now that's always interesting to ponder.
    How much of our behavior is attributed to our wiring, and how was our wiring schematic finalized as we grew and matured?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    It's funny you should mention this as I have long been wondering about the relationship not only between affective empathy and mirror neurons but also between those two and Fe/Fi
    I'd love to hear your findings as such whenever that time comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Some people do teach themselves to read and write. There are children to figure out how who read by the age of three or five even with minimal or no help. I've seen people self-teach almost any skill and knowledge. In general the self-teaching process may not be as efficient as having a trained guide and teacher, but for certain minds and personalities it can even be more efficient than with the wrong mentor. You see this process more with people at either end of the norm. The gifted/genius child self teaches the majority of concepts and teachers just guide in places. I even have developmentally delayed autistic students who have taught themselves how to transpose chord progressions to any key.
    I think the bolded portion above is simply amazing.



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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I don't empathize with people who don't want to learn how to empathize...LMAO
    You know how people feel when they don't want to learn, but you don't feel it yourself - this is called empathy.

  5. #65
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    Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.

    However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.

  6. #66
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    It can be learned.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    It can be learned.
    But the fact is that almost no one learns to empathise unless they are compelled to learn for their job.

    Just as almost no one learns to read and write unless they are compelled by Law to go to school.

    This is because reading and writing and empathising are counter-intuitive and unnatural.

  8. #68
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Learning to empathise is like learning to play the piano - at first there are mechanical exercises, until they become second nature, then we can start to play the piano and use empathy without thinking about the mechanics.

    However it is quite vain to think we can play the piano or learn to empathise without first practising the mechanical exercises.
    But some of us did exactly that, at least with the piano. I won't make any claims about empathy. And some of us learned to read long before we set foot in a school.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    What I mean is, can someone who is not naturally empathetic learn how to become empathetic?

    I kind of think they can learn but only if they see their own deficit and want to learn without seeking any other gains.

    What do you think?
    No. Empathy is earned. Using myself and many INTJ's I know as examples, you're not going to see us give two shits about things we believe aren't worth the effort. Empathy isn't something thinkers can just toss around everywhere, that shit is draining. We have to be selective about it.

    If you want my empathy, you play by my rules when you enter my life. Once you manage to put your ego beneath mine, I suddenly become the most humble and caring person you'll ever meet.

    I spent 5 years in the military with people telling me I should "care more." I still have no idea what they were talking about, and when I tried to "care" about things I didn't actually care about, I became neurotic and suicidal. One day I stopped trying, and all my problems went away and I suddenly started making more friends.

    Moral of the story, be who you are and the people who love you for that will stick around. The people who don't, don't deserve your time.

  10. #70
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post

    Moral of the story, be who you are and the people who love you for that will stick around. The people who don't, don't deserve your time.
    Actually, I agree with this. Trying to get the approval of others is a waste of time, a fool's errand.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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