• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

To be or not to be a psychopath?

Would you choose to be a psychopath? l

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 14.3%
  • No

    Votes: 24 85.7%

  • Total voters
    28

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I'm quite sure that by becoming a sociopath I would automatically increase my chances of ending up in jail, so no.

Having a 'conscience' is an effective tool to prevent us from acting out to satisfy immediate desires. Sociopaths still feel anger, and without a developed superego they have much less control over it.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Psychopaths have no problem with theory of mind - which is what makes them such successful manipulators. If they did not have this cognitive aspect of empathy, they would not be able to charm and ingratiate. They are the definition of Machiavellian. Where they have a deficit is in pairing that cognition with what we regard as appropriate affect - concern for the other person or even themselves. They are therefore able to be both fearless and merciless. Even if they understand that they will be punished for something, a feature of the condition is that they are unable to learn to fear punishment - that other "brake" on reckless behaviour. This actually constitutes a learning disability. Evolution gave us emotion for a reason. It's useful. As already mentioned, the amygdala controls fear response and tends to be damaged in the sociopath (along with other brain regions collectively termed "the empathy circuit"). A feature of autism is excessive fearfulness and anxiety, (for example, around change of routine/novelty) which also indicates a role for the amygdala, but again implies over-sensitivity rather than under-sensitivity .

After reading this, I'm reconsidering my position.
 

Rail Tracer

Freaking Ratchet
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
3,031
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Psychopathic criminals have empathy switch

Not sure if anyone has posted this, since it is recent.

A psychopath's empathy, by default, is "turned off"

The study did a brain scan of criminals, and found that the ones who didn't feel anything for others misfortunes were able to feel something when asked to feel something.

Psychopaths can turn on their empathy at will when asked, but whether it is empathy or not is debatable.

I don't know how you guys are willing to define the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath though.
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Apparently the most dependable way to detect a sociopath is to monitor their stress responses (heart rate, perspiration, etc..) inflict pain on them in some manner (electric shock was the standard), then tell them you will do the same thing again but worse on the count of 10. Do the count and inflict the pain on them even worse as promised. If at no point in between did they show signs of increased stress, there's a strong chance you have a sociopath.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Apparently the most dependable way to detect a sociopath is to monitor their stress responses (heart rate, perspiration, etc..) inflict pain on them in some manner (electric shock was the standard), then tell them you will do the same thing again but worse on the count of 10. Do the count and inflict the pain on them even worse as promised. If at no point in between did they show signs of increased stress, there's a strong chance you have a sociopath.

I can confirm that the results of this study have been well documented, it also reinforces additional findings that psychopaths often experience a decreased stress-level when entering dangerous situations. For example, psychopathic firefighters experience this when racing into a burning building as do bomb-squad members when disarming an explosive device.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
I can confirm that the results of this study have been well documented, it also reinforces additional findings that psychopaths often experience a decreased stress-level when entering dangerous situations. For example, psychopathic firefighters experience this when racing into a burning building as do bomb-squad members when disarming an explosive device.

I wonder -

I remember I would visit the psychiatric unit of Prince Henry Hospital. And when I entered the unit and sat and talked with the psychiatric patients, I become uber calm.

Not everyone had the same response. My sister became distressed and vomited afterwards.

The psychiatric unit was a high stress unit with patients suffering from florid psychoses. And yet it was the most peaceful place for me.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
You think?
The woman is utterly delusional. She states that she is "generally free from irrational emotions" right after describing a "megalomaniacal fantasy" in which she strangles a jobsworth. The extent of her murderous rage is utterly irrational. In fact, she is ensnared by irrational emotions - all the more so because of her lack of self-insight. Lack of self-awareness/self-knowledge is a side effect of empathy deficit. We come to understand ourselves by coming to understand others, not the other way around. So she is not just interpersonally impaired, but intrapersonally impaired. Stalking the guy through the mall only to impotently decide to do nothing at all is kinda lame. In what way is that perfect, to you? What did she actually accomplish?
She definitely has irrational something going on - I'm not sure it's emotions. What I meant by the escalator incident is how she is totally unfazed by the security person, criticising her for something petty and inconsequential. Those people are often on power trips. which are fed by the reflexive deference and even fear of ordinary folks. This woman's attitude of "this is not important and I am not about to be bothered by it" would serve the rest of us well in many cases.

As for how successful she is, yes, sociopaths can do well, especially in Law (it's easier to float to the top in certain professions if you untether yourself from any kind of moral constraints - you're still only on top of a pile of shit), but they are consummate liars. We can't take anything this woman says on faith. And from the situations she cites as "successes", she presents quite a pathetic figure, in my view. They are broken people, more pitiable than enviable.
Well, church involvements aside, I consider this woman's accomplishments quite admirable. Her methods, obviously, are more controversial. I find myself identifying with much but not all of the perspectives she shares, which is why I am not a psychopath, just someone who might share some of their qualities. The big difference is that I do have a conscience, and deliberately cause harm to others only for a very good reason. (Some find even this morally objectionable, which all comes down to values.)

There are two dimensions to psychopathy, as measured by the PPI: fearless-dominance and impulsive-antisociality. It is the latter dimension that is linked to sadism/cruelty and criminality. Psychopaths who manage to stay out of the criminal justice system are likely lower on this dimension.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819310/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2916168/#!po=83.3333

http://www.sltinfo.com/autism-and-theory-of-mind.html
Autists (paradoxically, given the derivation of the word) also have a defective sense of self. They are unable to properly distinguish between self and other. This probably exacerbates the problem, because to be able to offer assistance (empathic response) one must be able to effectively suppress one's own distress.

Psychopaths have no problem with theory of mind - which is what makes them such successful manipulators. If they did not have this cognitive aspect of empathy, they would not be able to charm and ingratiate. They are the definition of Machiavellian. Where they have a deficit is in pairing that cognition with what we regard as appropriate affect - concern for the other person or even themselves.
The first one seems rather inconclusive, with psychopaths' reactions similar to those of the control in some respects, and showing unexpected sensitivity to pain situations in others, contradicting earlier studies. In any case, the sample size is very small. The abstract conclusion "These preliminary findings suggest that youth with aggressive CD exhibit an atypical pattern of neural response to viewing others in pain that should be explored in further studies." about sums it up. The ability to map brain functions through fMRI should lead to more studies like this, and hopefully more understanding of the underlying physiology.

The second article is interesting in linking hyperactivity of the dopamine reward system with the psychopathic quality of impulsive, risk-taking behavior. This contradicts, however, the stereotype of a psychopath carefully plotting whatever action he/she is going to take, with great patience and control (like the woman setting up the romantic trio). Is the stereotype wrong, or just applicable to a small set of psychopaths, perhaps those with "high IQ"?

The one on autism was especially interesting, and suggests my estimation of empathy was backwards, with affective empathy being stronger than cognitive. I know only one autistic person and see her only infrequently, so I'm not surprised I had it wrong. The doll test is clever. I would not have considered autistic people and psychopaths to be similar, though, with that ability to manipulate being a significant discriminator.

I don't see how anyone can describe a psychopath's life as fulfilling. The condition entails blunted affect which necessarily entails a blunted feeling of fulfilment, even if their relationship issues did not.
Interesting. Something drives psychopaths to do what they do, though. Even the woman in the article you linked. She got something out of stalking the man in the mall, or setting up the romantic trio, otherwise she would not have put the effort into it. What was that?
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I wonder -

I remember I would visit the psychiatric unit of Prince Henry Hospital. And when I entered the unit and sat and talked with the psychiatric patients, I become uber calm.

Not everyone had the same response. My sister became distressed and vomited afterwards.

The psychiatric unit was a high stress unit with patients suffering from florid psychoses. And yet it was the most peaceful place for me.
Perhaps you felt a sense of belonging?
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Psychopathic criminals have empathy switch

Not sure if anyone has posted this, since it is recent.

A psychopath's empathy, by default, is "turned off"

The study did a brain scan of criminals, and found that the ones who didn't feel anything for others misfortunes were able to feel something when asked to feel something.

Psychopaths can turn on their empathy at will when asked, but whether it is empathy or not is debatable.
That's interesting, though:
"It's dangerous to look at brain activation and say that it means they're empathising. They are able to generate a typical neural response, but that doesn't mean they have the same empathetic experience," Prof Viding told BBC News.

"We know they can generate the same response but they do that in an active and effortful way. Under free-viewing conditions they don't seem to. Just because they can emphasise, doesn't mean they will.

I would say empathy is only effective because it's involuntary.
Why would anyone *choose* to suffer someone else's pain (while it's happening)? We are programmed to avoid pain. That's how empathy works. By avoiding the pain caused within ourselves when we hurt someone else, we learn as young animals how to behave in pro-social ways.

It also leads to questions about the "brain damage" associated with psychopathy. Cause? Or effect? Although the isolation of genetic markers indicates that one is born with this propensity, the brain also atrophies through lack of use.

We also know how easy it is to become desensitised to pain through experience.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I think you may have misunderstood me, I am not saying that all sadists are high IQ psychopaths. Rather, that high IQ psychopaths are more likely to be sadists than low IQ psychopaths, but there could be non-psychopathic sadists and quite a few sadistic psychopaths them may have a low IQ.
Per study cited earlier, if it is the high impulsivity-antisociality dimension (which implies compromised frontal lobe involvement - the "executive" region of the brain) that is linked with sadism/cruelty and criminal acts, then these are the low IQ psychopaths that end up in jail, not the high IQ ones that end up in the CEO's chair.

Of course, you might be talking about mental cruelty, which is linked to the drive for psychological dominance. I.e. it's a means to a gratifying end, not an end in itself.

Psychopaths certainly miss out on the joys of intimate emotional connections with others, but are their lives truly less fulfilling than that of most normal people?
I guess we can only define fulfilling as it makes sense to us. The main objection to psychopathy is that it is harmful to others. If you are an empathic person this matters to you, if you're not, you're already on your way to being a psychopath.

A sizable portion of our population lives in a state of constant dread, shame, anxiety and deep uncertainty.
So you want to trade one disorder for another? That's not a rational or sustainable solution.

That is true, but pathological conditions are always defined within the context of a society where the alleged patient resides. In our society, pathological risk-aversion is more serious of a deficiency than pathological risk-seeking. The psychopaths are currently better adapted to our society, whether or not that may change in the future is another topic.
Better adapted like superbugs? Yeah sure, if you want to be a parasite, you might as well be one that's immune to the usual prophylactics.
 

violet_crown

Active member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,959
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
853
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Why would anyone *choose* to suffer someone else's pain (while it's happening)?

Because grace and compassion are the qualities that seperate us from the animals. Both are rooted in empathy.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
She definitely has irrational something going on - I'm not sure it's emotions. What I meant by the escalator incident is how she is totally unfazed by the security person, criticising her for something petty and inconsequential. Those people are often on power trips. which are fed by the reflexive deference and even fear of ordinary folks. This woman's attitude of "this is not important and I am not about to be bothered by it" would serve the rest of us well in many cases.
You're criticising a jobsworth as being on a "power trip" but think the psychopath response is "perfect"? You can't be serious...
She wasn't "totally unfazed". She was totally crazed. Murderous rage is an emotion. In this context, an irrational one.

She reminds me of the kind of immature INTx so out of touch with her emotions that she disavows having any, even while in the grip of them. Thus she will claim "not to care" while actually caring more than is reasonable. Beware the shadow and its lies.

Well, church involvements aside, I consider this woman's quite admirable. Her methods, obviously, are more controversial. I find myself identifying with much but not all of the perspectives she shares, which is why I am not a psychopath, just someone who might share some of their qualities. The big difference is that I do have a conscience, and deliberately cause harm to others only for a very good reason. (Some find even this morally objectionable, which all comes down to values.)
Remind me not to add you to my friends list....;)

The second article is interesting in linking hyperactivity of the dopamine reward system with the psychopathic quality of impulsive, risk-taking behavior. This contradicts, however, the stereotype of a psychopath carefully plotting whatever action he/she is going to take, with great patience and control (like the woman setting up the romantic trio). Is the stereotype wrong, or just applicable to a small set of psychopaths, perhaps those with "high IQ"?
As I tried to point out,( but obviously didn't do a very good job of) there are two main dimensions to psychopathy. Not all psychopaths have poor impulse control. Clearly the plotters have a better reign on that.

Interesting. Something drives psychopaths to do what they do, though. Even the woman in the article you linked. She got something out of stalking the man in the mall, or setting up the romantic trio, otherwise she would not have put the effort into it. What was that?
I have no idea. At a guess I'd say she felt compelled to stalk the guy as a result of feeling so highly aggrieved. This is typical of narcissistic injury. She held herself back though, because she understood that the consequences would not ultimately be in her favour. She satisfied herself with an impotent revenge fantasy.

Manipulating the thoughts, feelings and behaviours of those around her makes her feel powerful. She is also parasitising / sabotaging emotions she is unable to genuinely to experience herself. Psychopaths are needy beings at heart, like all parasites, they have to find a host. I think you would have to be terribly sad and empty to derive any kind of satisfaction from breaking someone's heart.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Because grace and compassion are the qualities that seperate us from the animals. Both are rooted in empathy.

That's a rational response. While in the grip of that pain, though, you don't want to be feeling it. If you could flip a switch to take away the pain, you would. Not least because it can make you less able to assist*. That's why empathy *has* to be involuntary to work.

*which is why a lack of affective empathy can be useful in disciplines like surgery.

Edit. I take issue with the "separate us from animals" bit. We are not the first (or some might argue even the most) empathic beings on this planet.

I also find anthropocentric arguments of this kind unsatisfyingly circular.
 

violet_crown

Active member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,959
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
853
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
That's a rational response. While in the grip of that pain, though, you don't want to be feeling it. If you could flip a switch to take away the pain, you would. Not least because it can make you less able to assist*. That's why empathy *has* to be involuntary to work.

*which is why a lack of affective empathy can be useful in disciplines like surgery.

Perhaps I was unclear on how you were defining empathy. I was thinking of more of the emotional variety. Even from a physical perspective, I think pain is more than something simply to be dissipated or avoided. In physiological terms, pain is designed to both signal that there is a problem, as well as to prevent further injury. Emotional pain does something similar in that it reveals disorder within our psyche. One avoids pain at the risk of avoiding a very fundamental kind of self-awareness.

As for empathy, I don't think that the real value of it necessarily lies in healing. It can, but honestly I think the true value of it is compassion. Sharing in something real and intimate with someone, and recognizing less distinction between the two of you as a result. There's the potential for tremendous spiritual growth in that, I think.

I mean, someone who was capable of true empathy, but could remain sufficiently disconnected from that other person to continue to prioritize their own wants and needs is my definition of a psychopath. When you break it down, all emotional empathy is is having an adequate theory of mind to predict the emotions a person is likely experiencing at a given time. A person who is capable of that, but at no point connects the other individual's experiences to their own is dangerous. That's what I thought of when you said that no one would involuntarily seek to be empathetic, because of the pain it would cause them. That you were describing someone either weak, incredibly unevolved or outright monstrous. I know you were just describing a rational actor, but even economist rarely take that assumption seriously when trying to real, breathing human beings.


Edit. I take issue with the "separate us from animals" bit. We are not the first (or some might argue even the most) empathic beings on this planet.

I also find anthropocentric arguments of this kind unsatisfyingly circular.

Excuse the turn of phrase. I was mostly trying to get at the idea that it brings out humanity at its best, and probably should have just said that instead.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
^ Exactly. Knowing that pain is useful doesn't stop us reaching for the Advil though. It does stop us tampering with our brains because we can rationalise that we are better off having the capacity to feel pain than not. Although there are people who perpetually self-medicate to avoid pain - we tend to think of those people as fragile or weak-willed rather than adaptive.

My point is that if we could empathise selectively (ie shut off the painful emotion whenever it suited us, as psychopaths can) that wouldn't be as adaptive for our species, since, (assuming we aren't masochists) we'd likely hit the override switch whenever our empathy got in the way of our interests.
 

violet_crown

Active member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,959
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
853
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
^ Exactly. Knowing that pain is useful doesn't stop us reaching for the Advil though. It does stop us tampering with our brains because we can rationalise that we are better off having the capacity to feel pain than not. Although there are people who perpetually self-medicate to avoid pain - we tend to think of those people as fragile or weak-willed rather than adaptive.

My point is that if we could empathise selectively (ie shut off the painful emotion whenever it suited us, as psychopaths can) that wouldn't be as adaptive for our species, since, (assuming we aren't masochists) we'd likely hit the override switch whenever our empathy got in the way of our interests.

Gotcha. Agreed.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Psychopath here (or so I'm told at least once a month).

I would like to replace the positive connotation of "psychopath" with "ruthless." I believe psychopath should still only apply to people who draw and quarter strangers, because its unfair to those who are legitimate and kind people such as myself.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
Psychopath here (or so I'm told at least once a month).

I would like to replace the positive connotation of "psychopath" with "ruthless." I believe psychopath should still only apply to people who draw and quarter strangers, because its unfair to those who are legitimate and kind people such as myself.


You're probably a narcissist, not a psychopath.
 
Top