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  1. #21
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What I am describing though, is the opposite of pushy. Even if it can be placed in the "Fe" category, that category would need subcategories in order to represent the different sorts of communication styles. I am familiar with Fe becoming pushy and it is a different phenomenon that what I am describing. The MBTI category are low resolution by nature and so if strongly delineated behaviors/processing fall into the same category, they can become misunderstood when diluted into a set of lower-resolution assumptions. Does that make sense?
    Not so much that it's not making sense, but this entire way of understanding communication as a social act is extremely foreign to me. I thus have difficulties placing where I think it falls in terms of submissive-aggressive. I often get the sense that pushy Fe tends to come across as more passive-aggressive but again, I am extremely biased towards Fe.

    I just fail to see exactly what you are doing that is submissive, necessarily, as I just read it as Fe to me.

    As a sidenote, I am curious if you think my communication style in text is aggressive or not, or more male or female (should also be noted that I am not a native English speaker but it is my second language). I am largely oblivious to how I come across when I communicate unless people tell me in my face.

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  2. #22
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    Not so much that it's not making sense, but this entire way of understanding communication as a social act is extremely foreign to me. I thus have difficulties placing where I think it falls in terms of submissive-aggressive. I often get the sense that pushy Fe tends to come across as more passive-aggressive but again, I am extremely biased towards Fe.

    I just fail to see exactly what you are doing that is submissive, necessarily, as I just read it as Fe to me.
    Giving control over to the other person in terms of topic choice, length of speaking time, allowing their assumptions to fully develop and express, allowing them to feel superior, etc. are the means by which a person submits to another person in communication. I don't do it as much online as irl, mostly because I have more time to think about a response and the ramifications of a more aggressive/contrary response. There are some T types who are quiet and submissive in conversation, but would tend to be less attentive or reassuring or aware of the other person's emotional state. I feel like there are also underlying principles about a submissive style that could apply to both T and F. It isn't necessarily solely a subcategory of Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post
    As a sidenote, I am curious if you think my communication style in text is aggressive or not, or more male or female (should also be noted that I am not a native English speaker but it is my second language). I am largely oblivious to how I come across when I communicate unless people tell me in my face.
    I would describe your post as neutral. I'm very flexible about being on the receiving end of conversations and am not offended by people who are aggressive/dominant in conversation - especially if they have something interesting and valid to say. I can recalibrate to almost any style as long as it is honest in nature. With game playing - especially image based competition, I *might* be able to calibrate, but then again I might not because it makes me sick. What is offensive are the times I am more assertive and get slapped down with insults that are socially driven, but expressed as undermining knowledge and credibility.
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  3. #23
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    I've heard people criticize the methodology of most research on the mental/psychological differences between genders, and though I haven't read up on it yet, my gut tells me not to buy the hypothesis addressed in this thread. I'd think that these potential "gender differences" would be most evident in the language styles of those with high Fe, because they're more likely to adopt common styles of expression, which are often informed by cultural expectations in regards to gender.

    I mean, look at the people in this forum. Almost every time a member's gender hasn't been immediately obvious to me, they've been either an Fi type or an xxTP. The only exception I can think of seems to come from a culture different than mine, which might explain my confusion.

  4. #24
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I've heard people criticize the methodology of most research on the mental/psychological differences between genders, and though I haven't read up on it yet, my gut tells me not to buy the hypothesis addressed in this thread. I'd think that these potential "gender differences" would be most evident in the language styles of those with high Fe, because they're more likely to adopt common styles of expression, which are often informed by cultural expectations in regards to gender.

    I mean, look at the people in this forum. Almost every time a member's gender hasn't been immediately obvious to me, they've been either an Fi type or an xxTP. The only exception I can think of seems to come from a culture different than mine, which might explain my confusion.
    Are you saying that you find it easy to tell gender from writing style, or the opposite? I started this thread largely to see what people find to be the differences. My inclination is to disagree that there are inherent stylistic differences, but I won't dismiss the possibility without evidence, and as you point out, available research is often ambiguous or flawed.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Are you saying that you find it easy to tell gender from writing style, or the opposite? I started this thread largely to see what people find to be the differences. My inclination is to disagree that there are inherent stylistic differences, but I won't dismiss the possibility without evidence, and as you point out, available research is often ambiguous or flawed.
    Yeah, my inclination is to disagree, too -- and my guess is that if there were significant differences, they would be a result of social conditioning and not inherent psychological differences.

    The only difference I can think of off the top of my head is that women tend to use more exclamation points and capitals/italics/etc. for emphasis.

  6. #26
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    Yeah, my inclination is to disagree, too -- and my guess is that if there were significant differences, they would be a result of social conditioning and not inherent psychological differences.

    The only difference I can think of off the top of my head is that women tend to use more exclamation points and capitals/italics/etc. for emphasis.
    So are we talking about written text only or speech? Because while those are related, they are not the same.

    By removing all the physical nuance and pacing of spoken language, there will be much less difference, although there could still be some. I notice less difference in the actual written text than in the underlying social nuance between genders when these are identified through pictures, avatars, and usernames. Have you noticed on "T" forums, and even here, how often female "Ts" will have male images in their avatars? I've also noticed it in women who work in male dominated societies.

    An isolated post of text itself is a very distilled form of language, but the more context it is placed it socially, the more the issues of gender differences come into play.

    Also, my understanding of much of the research is that it is not assuming that the language differences are genetic, but that they are culturally instilled. That is still an important issue to explore. I think the feminine aspects of my communication are culturally instilled, for example.

    Do you consider it an issue worth exploring if it pertains to the culturally instilled use of gender differences in language? Also, if it is addressing aspects of spoken language and not just written text?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  7. #27
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    So are we talking about written text only or speech? Because while those are related, they are not the same.

    By removing all the physical nuance and pacing of spoken language, there will be much less difference, although there could still be some. I notice less difference in the actual written text than in the underlying social nuance between genders when these are identified through pictures, avatars, and usernames. Have you noticed on "T" forums, and even here, how often female "Ts" will have male images in their avatars? I've also noticed it in women who work in male dominated societies.

    An isolated post of text itself is a very distilled form of language, but the more context it is placed it socially, the more the issues of gender differences come into play.

    Also, my understanding of much of the research is that it is not assuming that the language differences are genetic, but that they are culturally instilled. That is still an important issue to explore. I think the feminine aspects of my communication are culturally instilled, for example.

    Do you consider it an issue worth exploring if it pertains to the culturally instilled use of gender differences in language? Also, if it is addressing aspects of spoken language and not just written text?
    I am interested in all of this: written and spoken language, influence of culture as well as anything that may be inherently hard-wired. Written language as on a forum like this is especially interesting because it is the most stripped down form of communication. We don't see the speaker, or hear their voice and intonation, and have none of the other cues that accompany in-person, telephone, or even handwritten information. Assuming a neutral avatar and username, we have only their words. I suspect it is these missing accompaniments that provide many of the cues people usually use to assign gender.
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  8. #28
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I meant to respond to this thread ages past. Luckily, I bookmarked this thread.

    I agree with @Coriolis that the supposedly "male" and "female" styles of language are really Thinking and Feeling. As an example, just a few days ago, I saw someone ask if a male Fe dom was a woman, just because of the way he talked. Regarding the Wikipedia article, while I haven't read it in depth, I can see a lot of the supposedly male features of language being attributable to Thinking rather than possession of a dick.

    Truly, I have noticed a correlation between type and communication. With the exception of IxFJs, I find the Thinkers on this form easier to understand than the Feelers. This is so independent of gender. There is the distinct sense with Fi doms, of any gender, that we are discussing two entirely different things that share a meager connecting thread. Male Fi doms are no easier for me to understand.

    Likewise, the women on this forum I have the easiest time understanding are all Thinkers. I should clarify that I speak of understanding, not agreement. There is little mystery present, and minimal head-scratching to be found. Thinking "gets through" to me in a way that Feeling doesn't. I can agree with Feelers on something, but be bothered by for their reasons for having that opinion. I can disagree with Thinkers, but find that they have a solid argument.

    I don't believe genders, or sexes, are so inherently different that there are things about the other gender I can't "comprehend" simply because I'm a man. If I don't understand something, more often than not it has to do with the way it is being expressed. it usually has to do with the way it's being expressed, rather than the issue being simply unfathomable. Humans read and learn about things they don't personally witness all the time, and seem to be capable of getting some understanding regardless. If human understanding did not work this way, then the teaching of history as a subject is worthless. I don't understand why so many people assume things work differently once we stop talking about the War of 1812 and start talking about living, breathing people of different genders. .

    Regarding the submission @fia spoke of, I think that might be a Thinking vs. Feeling thing as well. To be able to judge if someone is bothered by an idea or not requires the use of some function other than Thinking. Possibly, this is Feeling, but I can see Intuition playing this role in myself. I do not really witness the women who are Thinkers on this forum employ that kind of style, either.

    But, speaking for myself, I'm not usually attuned to people enough (when they are represented as disembodied strings of text, anyway) to know if they have an extreme antipathy toward an idea or not. Moreover, if I'm convinced of an idea, and they reject it without giving a good reason, I just assume they don't understand and continue to press on and explain my idea. If I stop doing this, usually it's because I'm bored, and not out of any consideration of their feelings. (My general philosophy of life is that truth can never really hurt, only sting a little at first.)

    I can see some people thinking I'm arrogant, but in truth, I don't actually believe I'm always right. Rather, I'm not inclined to give up an idea I worked hard on without a decent explanation from someone else, and Feelers seem to demand I do this the most. And it's not just the Feeler females that do this, but the Feeler males as well.

    Thinkers, male or female, will either give me an explanation or just tell me I'm an idiot. The latter seems like something people who are Intuitors or Sensors first (and have thinking in an auxiliary position) tend to do, but I find that if I'm tenacious enough, I can get some kind of explanation. Feelers just get offended by this.

    As far as I can tell, all the Thinking women of this forum share the same bull-headed tenaciousness I do. We may disagree on things, but I truly think we share some kind of communication style.

    I find Ti clear, and Fi opaque, regardless of which gender it's coming from.

    Fe doms, too, have a style. I would not say that that I find Fe hard to understand, but Fe doms very obviously communicate in a different fashion than the Thinkers do.

    Now, onto the problematic section: The IxFJs won't behave and fit my model. I find myself confusing you for INTPs all the time over the interwebs, while I do not do this for Fe doms. Perhaps what's going on with the IxFJ's is that they are encouraged by me entering discussions in good faith. (Usually I enter arguments or discussions for the sake of understanding, usually... I'm indifferent to whether or not I "win." Actually, I seem to be indifferent to competition in general, despite a love of competition being seen as a male trait.) I wonder if they can tell that I'm actually willing to listen, and so find themselves not needing to submit. Does this seem probable?
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  9. #29
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    I had a linguistics teacher who specialized in linguistics and gender. In her class we learned that women are more likely to interrupt each other, build off of what each other says, and participate more in cooperative communication. Men are more likely to speak more in monologues, allowing each other to finish points and then responding. Would that resemble P vs. J? Or is that still evidence of F and T?
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  10. #30
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    I had a linguistics teacher who specialized in linguistics and gender. In her class we learned that women are more likely to interrupt each other, build off of what each other says, and participate more in cooperative communication. Men are more likely to speak more in monologues, allowing each other to finish points and then responding. Would that resemble P vs. J? Or is that still evidence of F and T?
    Not sure. None of those things really apply to written communication. My spoken communication style is somewhat more disjointed because I don't have the opportunity to refine what I'm saying.

    Moreover:

    With spoken communication, I rarely engage in monologues. I can't really talk for hours without the other person doing something too. Trying to maintain that is simply too exhausting. I often interject, and I have a natural tendency to interrupt people, which I've curbed somewhat. Monologues vs. building seems more extrovert vs. introvert. I've definitely known a decent amount of women to monologue.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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