"Child of rage" documentary

[lowtech redneck]

For every psychopath one finds based on the 'flatness' or 'deadness' of their eyes, you'll get at least ten false positives, and miss an equal amount of other psychopaths.

 

[Ivy]

Exactly, lowtech.

I asked Noah to chime in on this because he's got super good instincts. He refuses to post anymore, sadly, but I will report what he said. Eyes can be a clue, but not a reliable one- some people "pass" better than others, and "some regular people just have crazy eyes." It can be a very primitive tool if primitive tools are needed (such as in personal protection/safety), but not one he'd ever rely on to judge a person's character accurately.

His criteria wasn't so much the eyes in isolation, though- more that the eyes don't match the rest of the face in expression, which points to deception. Deception is not necessarily sociopathy- a non-sociopath can have something to hide, too.

 

[prplchknz]

i'm just curious, what does it mean if you have dead eyes but aren't a sociopath. does that mean the person has sociopathic tendencies?

 

[Ivy]

I think it means nothing at all. "Dead eyes" isn't like a scientific term or anything. It's very subjective.

 

[prplchknz]

I think it means nothing at all. "Dead eyes" isn't like a scientific term or anything. It's very subjective.

oh? and i thought everyone was being objective...oh wait

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Of note, every person I've ever met who was in the marines had allegedly crazy eyes. I think they train those crazy eyes into you.

 

[Epiphany]

Of note, every person I've ever met who was in the marines had allegedly crazy eyes. I think they train those crazy eyes into you.

Are you referring to the thousand-yard stare? Were they combat veterans? I certainly had that in basic training.

Recently, an employer guessed that I had been in the Marines because of the way I walked and something about my eyes; though I'm not sure what he was referring to was a result of being in the Marines. Sometimes, I survey my environment instinctively. It's sort of an intuitive "big picture" thing; though I focus more on people than objects in my environment.

 

[Ivy]

That's interesting that you bring up the "thousand yard stare," Moniker- the link you posted says it's a feature of PTSD, which I imagine young Beth had a case of to rival that of any combat vet.

 

[Epiphany]

That's interesting that you bring up the "thousand yard stare," Moniker- the link you posted says it's a feature of PTSD, which I imagine young Beth had a case of to rival that of any combat vet.

Especially being a young child. She undoubtedly did.

 

[Totenkindly]

"Dead eyes" isn't like a scientific term or anything. It's very subjective.

... well, usually... unless you're actually deceased.

(just sayin')

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Are you referring to the thousand-yard stare? Were they combat veterans? I certainly had that in basic training.

That actually looks more like some of the links in this thread to other neglected children. I realize this young girl of the thread topic was acting out her PTSD, but she didn't have a traumatized stare, she was speaking calmly about how she tortures and desires to kill those around her.

In a larger context, there is definitely a problem using just the impression of someone's eyes to judge their condition. This thread makes that clear because of the way everyone is seeing it differently. People tend to see a more general impression of maladjustment and neuro-atypical aspects to people's eyes.

That being said, I would not discount an individual's ability to read the nuance of true, sociopathic eyes. I think it is possible that [MENTION=122]marm[/MENTION] has more ability to do this than most anyone/everyone else in this thread. Once you interact with a true sociopath/psychopath, it provides a different ability to read the nuance of their expression. For posters who have not interacted with such a person, how could they read the specific nuances of it in someone's eyes? Well, they probably cannot and that is evident in the expressed inability to distinguish between different types of distance, hyper-focus, and trauma in various examples of non-expression in this thread.

For whatever this is worth, each expression shown in this thread look very different to me. Some are opposites - especially the deep authenticity vs. the artifice in various expressions. The two I would relate as most similar is the neglected girl [MENTION=9273]Vasilisa[/MENTION] posted and the soldier's eyes that [MENTION=9807]Moniker[/MENTION] posted.

My position is that different people have differing levels of ability to distinguish what a person's eyes are expressing. Because of this it is important to not dismiss someone's impression, but also to realize it would be dangerous to expect accuracy from people in general.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

These are the two I find most similar. If you notice the trauma in their eyes combined with the lack of use of any facial muscles. It is like being in shock and deeply reactionary. There is no aggression, but an expressed inability to process what has been forced upon them.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

One more comment about "flat eyes" and expression. This is partly from personal observation over the years and partly Freudian in its concept, but people with a lot of aggression can have a tendency to overuse the muscles around the mouth. From aggression and passive-aggression based people I've interacted with I've noticed that this can result in a kind of over-enunciation and exaggeration of the mouth, or it can tighten down the mouth so it is very tense and barely moves.

A comedic example of this is Dwight from the American version of "The Office". He overly uses the muscles around his mouth without expressing much in the eyes. It is funny, but it adds to the effect of him being overly aggressive. The adult image of the woman of this thread has that overly fired up muscles around the mouth without any expression in the eyes, so not only does it appear false, there is a hostile feeling associated with it.

 

[iwakar]

The start is very disturbing (I mean it), but the ending is beautiful. She evolves from utterly cruel/cold/sadistic/remorseless to a pretty 'normal' child.

I looked around for some more info online and found out this:

There appears to be confusion as to which therapist took Beth into her home for intensive attachment therapy. Some people believe it was Nancy Thomas however this is inaccurate. Connell Watkins rehabilitated Beth in her home and it appears she did a remarkable job. There is also an ongoing debate about Beth’s current mental state, her career choice of R.N. working with children, and her recovery. Due to Thomas’s extreme change in personality as a child and her ability to bond with others, I believe she is fully recovered and a good candidate for working with children with extreme RAD (reactive attachment disorder).Note that Thomas doesn’t work with children with moderate RAD symptoms but rather children whose severe mental condition have echoed her own.

It is Nancy Thomas, Beth’s adoptive mother, who concerns me. She is currently associated with a clinic that was established by Connell Watkins and Julie Ponder, both of whom are responsible for the suffocation death (re-birthing therapy) of 10-year-old Candace Newmaker. Beth and Nancy have since opened their own clinic treating children with RAD.

This precipitated the legislation known as Candace's Law, which bans therapeutic reenactment of the birth process.

Just interesting info.

 

[prplchknz]

... well, usually... unless you're actually deceased.

(just sayin')

don't eyes turn blueish when you die or have cataracts? not seen many dead people and all i've seen are the ones in caskets at funerals, and their eyes were shut

 

[Epiphany]

These are the two I find most similar. If you notice the trauma in their eyes combined with the lack of use of any facial muscles. It is like being in shock and deeply reactionary. There is no aggression, but an expressed inability to process what has been forced upon them.

One of the best movie portrayals of a traumatized mind that dissociates from the present reality is in the movie Full Metal Jacket. After Pvt. Pyle is physically assaulted by his whole platoon with a towel party, he detaches from his environment completely. There's a scene where his rackmate has to help him put his uniform on because his consciousness is not attuned to what's going on. After that, he loses his mind completely and kills his senior drill instructor and himself.

 

[Rasofy]

I looked around for some more info online and found out this:



This precipitated the legislation known as Candace's Law, which bans therapeutic reenactment of the birth process.

Just interesting info.

That was pretty good info, thank you for sharing.

I guess the 'attachment therapy' that everyone has been criticizing was not exactly what Beth went through - something I intuitively knew having watched the full video, but didn't have data to support.

The people who were taking care of her didn't seem violent at all. Rigorous, sure, but they seemed to care about giving love and leading by example instead of using fear to achieve their goals.

When I searched for attachment theraphy on google images I got this picture:

And holy crap, that's the kind of face I only see in horror movies. She doesn't even look like a human anymore. I wonder how much she charges to haunt a 200 sqm house.

Otoh, Beth might still look manipulative and all, but she doesn't look like a shell of her form self. Which leads me to believe that the methods have gotten macabre after this first 'success' with Beth.

 

[21%]

Otoh, Beth might still look manipulative and all, but she doesn't look like a shell of her form self. Which leads me to believe that the methods have gotten macabre after this first 'success' with Beth.

Have you read this? Nancy Thomas, Beth's 'mom':
http://childrenintherapy.org/proponents/thomasn.html

Read the 'in her own words' bit. It's pretty messed up. Her tone is quite abusive, and she advocates yelling at children, making misbehaving children sit still for 10 hours and calls them 'little furniture', using sugar as reward for good behavior, tells you know children should worship parents, and weird things like that.

I think... Beth was messed up, and the so-called Attachment Therapy administered by her 'mom' just 'brainwashed'/'reconditioned' her -- but I don't know if it's for the better or worse.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

What do you think of this expression and face? If you recognize her please don't say anything.

 

[greenfairy]

What do you think of this expression and face? If you recognize her please don't say anything.

She looks crazy.