"Child of rage" documentary

[Lark]

I had thought the reverse - that psychopaths schemed very carefully to get what they want, manipulating the world around them with great patience and foresight. But perhaps that is just a stereotype.

I dont know about that, people are not alert to them most of the time and I dont think its not unreasonable that they arent, especially if the same individuals have been clever enough to take up particular positions in order to carry out their crimes, in fiction there's Dexter, he's a forensic scene of crime officer, in point of fact some psycho like or at least conscienceless individuals became priests or exploited the positions of priests in their communities in order to carry out predatory acts.

I would question whether or not its realistic for the average individual to be totally vigilant and on the alert all the time to these kinds of people, the psychology is totally different, its a little bit like saying why cant wilder beast be more like lions, that is with none of the conventional disrespect of wilderbeast either, they are living their lives and I'm sure they are good lives but they arent lions and cant be expected to live accordingly or as a lion.

I've known a lot of victims of predators and my reactions to them are that they could be any of us, they arent morons, the people they dealt with are not evil genius' either, although they were something different to what the survivors thought they were and they behaved in reprehensible ways that no one could really be expected to be on the guard against in the normal run of things.

Consider the guy who was responsible for the bind, torture and kill serial killings too, that guy wasnt a criminal mastermind, he was just someone no one would suspect.

 

[Lark]

You may be interested in checking out this blog post I found that contemplates the common thread between extreme altruists and psychopaths.

Hmm, that's interesting, very interesting.

I've read about the connections and traits before and I think that's important. I'm unsure that its possible that sociopaths just need to be "redirected" and they can be altruists.

The context in which I'd read about it before was Erich Fromm's highlighting of the "caring sadist" idea in Fear of/Escape From Freedom, that while some people acting in a caring capacity may appear to be commendably altruistic they are in actually highly controlling individuals who enjoy the power they have over whoever is in their care. Fromm also used to make the controversal remark that Hitler was just an ordinary guy, that Hitler wasnt charismatic etc. etc. etc. but that he was just an ordinary guy with extraordinary power.

Edit: NB There's also the whole thing of being a hero by being "distinguished in battle", I watched an interesting documentary once which discussed a British officer who was a distinguished heroic figure, highly decorated, whom they suggested could only have been able to kill as many people as he could, saving his own men in the process, if he'd had at least some psychopathic traits. Can you believe that? It seems plausible to me in some respects, it seems like what the sociopath article may have been about.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm not in pain marm, i feel truely blessed. I do get cross that the world has not yet caught up but maybe that's what you meant.

Regarding Beth I wasn't making a judgement call either way but i think you were and that was what i was unsure about. You seemed to have decided bluntly that this was and is a sick individual who can't be helped. I tend to view these things differently and i do not believe it's projecting.

I do think having children with special needs has taught me patience and to observe more before judging (in some situations anyway) but i don't think thats the same as projecting here.

Um, I have cyclothymia, my sister is schizoaffective and I have a niece with Asperger's syndrome. You guys don't own the holier than thou market on non-judgement of people with disorders.

I'm actually done with this thread, it has disintegrated into childishness (not you, all of the mocking posts about eyes) and just as you can see varying disorders in a person's eyes, you can also see cruelty and sociopathy.

I have formed my opinion and refuse to rescind it. Sociopaths are manipulative and by the age of six a child's personality is so formed, it is not as though she was a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.

I don't think this woman should be taken out and shot or anything, but I think putting her in pediatrics is the height of stupidity, but I see this thing all the time in society and then everybody later on is like "omg I wonder what happened, why did she snap, or how was she getting away with this all along."

I'll continue to err on the side of caution when it comes to sociopaths and psychopaths, thanks.

They are not even in the same category as Autism.

 

[Thalassa]

I was reminded of some of the following comments on Zooey Deschanel's eyes (also very blue) also being denounced as creepy and scary.

Ted Bundy's eyes weren't blue. Neither are Charles Manson's.

You know, you guys, Austism isn't in the same category as psychopathy or ASPD.

All people with "disorders" aren't the same, and some of them most definitely should be judged.

I'm not sure what this thread is about anymore, but I stand firm on my skepticism that an UNVALIDATED TREATMENT THAT PSYCHIATRISTS DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE turned a child sociopath into someone who is well-suited to being a pediatric nurse.

Get some sense, people, Jesus.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Um, I have cyclothymia, my sister is schizoaffective and I have a niece with Asperger's syndrome. You guys don't own the holier than thou market on non-judgement of people with disorders.

Thanks for sharing that with us, it certainly explains a lot about you.

I'm actually done with this thread,

I doubt it, but good call anyway.

it has disintegrated into childishness

Did you forget what forum you were on?

(not you, all of the mocking posts about eyes) and just as you can see varying disorders in a person's eyes, you can also see cruelty and sociopathy.s

We type animals, inanimate objects and cartoon characters. We even get "vibes" about various "types" that other people have here. Why should we fall short of trying to "type" psychological disorders just by looking in people's eyes?

I have formed my opinion and refuse to rescind it.

Looks like you've grasped the rules of forum-discourse.

Sociopaths are manipulative and by the age of six a child's personality is so formed,

Certain parts of a personality are formed that early, but others are still being developed. Needless to say, people change a lot between the age of six and thirty, the age by when our personality becomes unlikely to undergo drastic alterations. I'd say that for the most part, the personality of six-year old children remains very much fluid and pliable to external influences. Sociopaths are manipulative, but even if sociopathy is inborn, six year olds will have a long way to go before they gain appreciable proficiency in the art of exploiting and deceiving others.

I don't think this woman should be taken out and shot or anything, but I think putting her in pediatrics is the height of stupidity, but I see this thing all the time in society and then everybody later on is like "omg I wonder what happened, why did she snap, or how was she getting away with this all along."

I'll continue to err on the side of caution when it comes to sociopaths and psychopaths, thanks.

According to Martha Stout's sociopath Next Door, 1 of 25 has been diagnosed with the anti-social personality disorder. Chances are, at least 10-20 more percent of possible suspects have not been diagnosed with it. It could be that sociopaths are as common as 1 in 20 or 1 in 15. Needless to say, we have at least one in our community and probably had many more in the past.

They are not even in the same category as Autism.

How astute, glad you realize that.

 

[Betty Blue]

Um, I have cyclothymia, my sister is schizoaffective and I have a niece with Asperger's syndrome. You guys don't own the holier than thou market on non-judgement of people with disorders.

I'm actually done with this thread, it has disintegrated into childishness (not you, all of the mocking posts about eyes) and just as you can see varying disorders in a person's eyes, you can also see cruelty and sociopathy.

I have formed my opinion and refuse to rescind it. Sociopaths are manipulative and by the age of six a child's personality is so formed, it is not as though she was a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.

I don't think this woman should be taken out and shot or anything, but I think putting her in pediatrics is the height of stupidity, but I see this thing all the time in society and then everybody later on is like "omg I wonder what happened, why did she snap, or how was she getting away with this all along."

I'll continue to err on the side of caution when it comes to sociopaths and psychopaths, thanks.

They are not even in the same category as Autism.

No marm of course not, but i was not claiming to know. You are claiming to know. Here is the difference.

I don't like to be bundled in as 'you guys', it may have escaped your attention but i have been absent for a while and am certainly not on any side or team.

I do know a psychopath and i did engage with you regarding eyes as you said you were interested. I'm still interested in talking about it in a mature way, don't stomp off on my account.


Edit: I'm really confused by why you think people are comparing autism to sociopathy/psychopathy.

 

[prplchknz]

is she a confirmed psychopath or is it all heresay?

 

[93JC]

I don't like to be bundled in as 'you guys', it may have escaped your attention but i have been absent for a while and am certainly not on any side or team.

You wanna start the No-Team Team with me? We'll regularly not meet, have no agenda and talk about nothing in particular and anything in general.

 

[Thalassa]

No marm of course not, but i was not claiming to know. You are claiming to know. Here is the difference.

I don't like to be bundled in as 'you guys', it may have escaped your attention but i have been absent for a while and am certainly not on any side or team.

I do know a psychopath and i did engage with you regarding eyes as you said you were interested. I'm still interested in talking about it in a mature way, don't stomp off on my account.

Her eyes are more like Ted Bundy's than they are Katy Perry's despite their large blueness. I see a bunch of infantile arguments based sheerly upon emotions about Austistic children in this thread, being applied to a child who coldly and articulately described murdering her adoptive family, as well as beating her brother half to death and molesting him.

I honestly don't think this thread is about Beth anymore.

And I am including you in "you guys" because you're saying how you're tolerant of people with disorders because of having an Autistic child but to compare your Autistic child or my non-violent schizoaffective sister to a psychopath is more than a little intellectually dishonest.

Or maybe it's not. Maybe you really believe anyone can be "saved" but it's been shown time and time again that certain people are not completely able to be rehabilitated. Those people are usually sociopaths and/or psychopaths.

Which is why I said early on the death sentence should exist solely for them, because once they start murdering or harming others they typically don't stop.

 

[Betty Blue]

You wanna start the No-Team Team with me? We'll regularly not meet, have no agenda and talk about nothing in particular and anything in general.

I have no desire to not do not that.

 

[93JC]

I have no desire to not do not that.

Oh good, nor do I have any desire to not do not that. Meeting adjourned!

 

[Thalassa]

Thanks for sharing that with us, it certainly explains a lot about you.

I know you have some anger at your mother who has BPD, but your snarky reply to me is unnecessary. Please do not contact me again, particularly not to solicit me to work for you. Thank you.

 

[Betty Blue]

Her eyes are more like Ted Bundy's than they are Katy Perry's despite their large blueness. I see a bunch of infantile arguments based sheerly upon emotions about Austistic children in this thread, being applied to a child who coldly and articulately described murdering her adoptive family, as well as beating her brother half to death and molesting him.

I honestly don't think this thread is about Beth anymore.

And I am including you in "you guys" because you're saying how you're tolerant of people with disorders because of having an Autistic child but to compare your Autistic child or my non-violent schizoaffective sister to a psychopath is more than a little intellectually dishonest.

Or maybe it's not. Maybe you really believe anyone can be "saved" but it's been shown time and time again that certain people are not completely able to be rehabilitated. Those people are usually sociopaths and/or psychopaths.

Which is why I said early on the death sentence should exist solely for them, because once they start murdering or harming others they typically don't stop.

Oh there are many things I am not tolerant of, but i think you misunderstand my position on Beth. I thought as a child she was not passed 'saving' but as i looked more into it i became concerned about the type of treatment she was having, how much of it was rehearsed, weather she was actually being abused further instead of receiving much needed therapy. I have done a fair amount of research on this case since the thread started, i have posted a lot of links and info and some of my initial feelings i have questioned.

I am very concerned that she is a neonatal nurse, and i hope that there is sufficient monitoring in the hospital she works in. However if she were coached into saying those things and there was a nasty cover up of her actual treatment then i think it would be terrible that she is being judged so harshly. My point remains that i do not know these things therefor i can not judge the situation.

There was one comment reagrding eyes in autistic children having been called creepy, there no comparrison between autism and psychopathy. You continued with eyes which was why i posted a picture of my daughters eyes, i had no ulterior motive, i was not trying to insinuate any connection, i thought you were interested as you had stated so.

 

[Thalassa]

Oh there are many things I am not tolerant of, but i think you misunderstand my position on Beth. I thought as a child she was not passed 'saving' but as i looked more into it i became concerned about the type of treatment she was having, how much of it was rehearsed, weather she was actually being abused further instead of receiving much needed therapy. I have done a fair amount of research on this case since the thread started, i have posted a lot of links and info and some of my initial feelings i have questioned.

I am very concerned that she is a neonatal nurse, and i hope that there is sufficient monitoring in the hospital she works in. However if she were coached into saying those things and there was a nasty cover up of her actual treatment then i think it would be terrible that she is being judged so harshly. My point remains that i do not know these things therefor i can not judge the situation.

There was one comment reagrding eyes in autistic children having been called creepy, there no comparrison between autism and psychopathy. You continued with eyes which was why i posted a picture of my daughters eyes, i had no ulterior motive, i was not trying to insinuate any connection, i thought you were interested as you had stated so.

I just think people are misunderstanding what I see in her eyes. I mentioned way earlier in the thread if this was an Se or Ne issue or what, but to me her eyes more clearly resemble the flatness you see in Ted Bundy's brown eyes as an adult, not in your Autistic child's large blue eyes, nor in Katy Perry's.

It's a quality of flatness and meanness that she appears to not have completely lost as an adult. I don't think my observation calls for all of this bruhaha and mockery in this thread, as if what I said was outrageous.

It turned from a thread about a child with violent tendencies who underwent a questionable treatment that has been rejected by many others and the distinct possibility that as an intelligent sociopath she would be bright enough to "pass" as "normal" to the peril of others, that may include children in her care...into some exaggerated argument about the rights of people with disorders to not be judged.

I apologize if I misunderstood you, but I also think a lot of people are misunderstanding me, thinking this is about the color of her eyes, or lighting, it's really disrespectful and off-topic, when there are a myriad of examples of people with sociopathic tendencies or who are convicted psychopaths in prison (or who were on death row) who have a similar eye flatness despite color.

I think you're being very fair.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Rasofy]

My daughters eyes...

View attachment 9679

Reminds me of the Death Note character 'L':

 

[prplchknz]

Hmmm interesting observations but i'm not sure i entirely agree, i would say that some autistic individuals find it difficult to understand things from others perspectives but they do have very real and reactionary feelings... even if they do not completely understand them (most are very capable of it). Also some autistic persons are empaths. I don't think attachment is so much of a problem, i have seen dozens and dozens of autistic children and adults all with very firm attachments. Change however and possibly new attachment they (generally) can have difficulty with.

It is common as i mentioned before hand for autistic individuals to have larger than usual eyes... unsure of the mouth...

My daughters eyes...

View attachment 9679

eyes seem normal to me i don't think they look larger than usual, which shows partially you can't diagnose a person on their eyes alone.otherwise it wouldn't take years and diagnositic changes for diagnosis to happen. geeze humans get real.

 

[Betty Blue]

eyes seem normal to me i don't think they look larger than usual, which shows partially you can't diagnose a person on their eyes alone.otherwise it wouldn't take years and diagnositic changes for diagnosis to happen. geeze humans get real.

Yah maybe i should have said larger than average. A lot of people have commented on my daughters eyes, mainly positive. Maybe it's that she has larger than other family members eyes... and that's something i have personally noted (annecdotal). But this is just personal experience, i was not suggesting anyone use it for diagnosis and i certainly was not suggesting my daughter has psychopathy.

I'm not even convinced marm does not see/pick up on psychopathy/sociopathy instinctually, it does happen. I think jennifer was mentioning something about people being instinctual, picking up on and honing in on details... maybe in preparation for fight or flight? I forget.

While i do think some people will be more atuned than others at picking up on these things we still have to tread carefully and check in.

 

[prplchknz]

Yah maybe i should have said larger than average. A lot of people have commented on my daughters eyes, mainly positive. Maybe it's that she has larger than other family members eyes... and that's something i have personally noted (annecdotal). But this is just personal experience, i was not suggesting anyone use it for diagnosis and i certainly was not suggesting my daughter has psychopathy.

I'm not even convinced marm does not see/pick up on psychopathy/sociopathy instinctually, it does happen. I think jennifer was mentioning something about people being instinctual, picking up on and honing in on details... maybe in preparation for fight or flight? I forget.

While i do think some people will be more atuned than others at picking up on these things we still have to tread carefully and check in.

maybe i'm naive but i don't remember what your eyes look like. Also i might be naive cuz i don't pick up on this stuff easily it takes me getting into pretty deep shit before i realize i'm being swindled people just seem nice to me, that's all.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm not even convinced marm does not see/pick up on psychopathy/sociopathy instinctually, it does happen. I think jennifer was mentioning something about people being instinctual, picking up on and honing in on details... maybe in preparation for fight or flight? I forget.

While i do think some people will be more atuned than others at picking up on these things we still have to tread carefully and check in.

I've checked out some other web sites about Beth Thomas, on one forum I found another person who said that they noticed not only Beth's eyes, but that the eyes of children diagnosed like her are all chillingly the same.

Attachment Disorder is a made up term, just FYI. Attachment disorder can be used to explain ANY dysfunctional pattern of bonding, running the gamut from being non-communicative to hostile to overly attention seeking or too trusting of strangers with inappropriately infantile behavior. It is not a real disorder *alone* it is simply a state that is indicative of many different states of so-called dysfunctional bonding, whether this was with one abusive care giver, or simply having many care givers (none of which who were abusive).

SOOOO....

And this form of "therapy" is widely criticized as being a form of child abuse. To me it more or less looks like Behaviorism, that is, modifying behavior without actually changing the internal state. And without the internal state being changed, it's highly possible that a sociopath could learn simply how to behave better but be inwardly calculating after receiving the "therapy" (part of the reason for my skepticism with Beth).

I know of people who work with disturbed or abused children, and all who are abused do not act like Beth, so there is some neurological component here most likely, hence the eye thing.

If I was to come in here and post photographs of adult serial killers and comment on their wild or cold eyes, no one would probably bat an eyelash, but because I dared to say it about a child, hence forth a bunch of bullshit drama.

It's funny to me that people were so critical of my opinion, but didn't criticize Vasilisa or Rasofy in the same manner, even as she and he sit here and advocate a form of therapy that some people consider a form of severe systematic child abuse.

I do believe that spotting the cruel and sociopathic is possible, and I am even further convinced that I am right, since people seemed to blatantly misunderstand what I was seeing in the first place (strangely comparing people with the same color of eyes, instead of the same expression or quality in the eyes).

 

[Coriolis]

I dont know about that, people are not alert to them most of the time and I dont think its not unreasonable that they arent, especially if the same individuals have been clever enough to take up particular positions in order to carry out their crimes, in fiction there's Dexter, he's a forensic scene of crime officer, in point of fact some psycho like or at least conscienceless individuals became priests or exploited the positions of priests in their communities in order to carry out predatory acts.

I would question whether or not its realistic for the average individual to be totally vigilant and on the alert all the time to these kinds of people, the psychology is totally different, its a little bit like saying why cant wilder beast be more like lions, that is with none of the conventional disrespect of wilderbeast either, they are living their lives and I'm sure they are good lives but they arent lions and cant be expected to live accordingly or as a lion.

I've known a lot of victims of predators and my reactions to them are that they could be any of us, they arent morons, the people they dealt with are not evil genius' either, although they were something different to what the survivors thought they were and they behaved in reprehensible ways that no one could really be expected to be on the guard against in the normal run of things.

Consider the guy who was responsible for the bind, torture and kill serial killings too, that guy wasnt a criminal mastermind, he was just someone no one would suspect.

I agree that most people don't suspect the psychopaths among us, and it would take a great deal of effort to be that vigilant. My comment addressed the idea of premeditation vs. seeking instant gratification. I think the more premeditated and patient a psychopath is, the harder to detect and defend against him/her.

I honestly don't think this thread is about Beth anymore.

It isn't. Some of us have branched out into a more general discussion of psychopathy, of which she is just one example.

Oh there are many things I am not tolerant of, but i think you misunderstand my position on Beth. I thought as a child she was not passed 'saving' but as i looked more into it i became concerned about the type of treatment she was having, how much of it was rehearsed, weather she was actually being abused further instead of receiving much needed therapy. I have done a fair amount of research on this case since the thread started, i have posted a lot of links and info and some of my initial feelings i have questioned.

There are actually two problems here: (1) how Beth was abused as a small child; and (2) the appropriateness of her treatment once she was removed from that situation. The cure may have been worse than the disease.

She discusses her plans for cruelty or death so calmly, this is the trait of the psychopath or sociopath.

She's 6, she's not crying or screaming or acting awkwardly, she's straight forwardly telling you how she's going to stab people in the night.

I meant to point out before that psychopaths do not have a monopoly on discussing dire events dispassionately. The ability to detach emotionally from such situations and address them calmly is valuable. I would be more concerned about Beth's intentions than her manner.

P.S. Has anyone seen the old Jodie Foster movie, The little girl who lived down the lane? I wouldn't consider the title character a psychopath, but some of the observations here made me think of it.