"Child of rage" documentary

[Lark]

So being bright and articulate makes someone dangerous? Is it better for the morally confused to be stupid or slow? It seems that would make it easier for the unscrupulous to manipulate them.

I dont know that being bright or articulate make people dangerous, perhaps, although I dont think its a given.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I dont know that being bright or articulate make people dangerous, perhaps, although I dont think its a given.

They can figure out how to get away with so much more. It enables them to be the one who manipulates and harms others. Who could do more damage over a lifetime: a psychopathic thug or psychiatrist?

 

[Coriolis]

.now we have you completely misunderstanding that I'm saying ALL intelligent people are more dangerous. NO. People with violent personality disorders and psychopathy are more dangerous if intelligent.

I am not completely misunderstanding. I am exploring the limits of your statement, to make sure I do understand. I'm not sure an unintelligent psychopath would be safer. They might act on their baser instincts more readily, without the intelligence to realize it is not the way to get ahead. If the intelligent ones can play the game better, which entails following certain rules to avoid being penalized, they may do less harm overall. They in fact may end up doing what the rest of us do in many cases, though out of very different motivations.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I am not completely misunderstanding. I am exploring the limits of your statement, to make sure I do understand. I'm not sure an unintelligent psychopath would be safer. They might act on their baser instincts more readily, without the intelligence to realize it is not the way to get ahead. If the intelligent ones can play the game better, which entails following certain rules to avoid being penalized, they may do less harm overall. They in fact may end up doing what the rest of us do in many cases, though out of very different motivations.

I know this isn't part of my statement, but I am still interested in exploring it. A functioning psychopath would tend to still deal with rage and have opportunities to do harm and get away with it. There are so many opportunities for people to do terrible harm within the constraints of the law, or even by skirting the law, or outright hiding from it. I would suggest that an unintelligent psychopath will likely end up in prison or dead after a few years of crossing the lines with the more clever and more enraged.

A "functioning" psychopath can marry a compliant, abusable partner, psychologically abuse their children and physically abuse them right up to the edge of being caught, they can make professional choices for the purpose of ruining lives, but using a disguise of good business, or even charity in working with the most vulnerable populations. If they can continue to function throughout a lifetime, the number of ruined lives can be incalculable. I don't think a functioning psychopath is someone who is just a tough business person who makes millions. There is still a need to destroy lives.

 

[Coriolis]

A "functioning" psychopath can marry a compliant, abusable partner, psychologically abuse their children and physically abuse them right up to the edge of being caught, they can make professional choices for the purpose of ruining lives, but using a disguise of good business, or even charity in working with the most vulnerable populations. If they can continue to function throughout a lifetime, the number of ruined lives can be incalculable. I don't think a functioning psychopath is someone who is just a tough business person who makes millions. There is still a need to destroy lives.

Is there? I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I thought psychopathy involved detachment from and disinterest in others, with the focus on what benefits oneself. I can see this leading to refusal to consider the needs of others, resulting in significant but unintentional hurt to others as the psychopath pursues his/her own agenda. The kind of killing and abuse described in many posts here goes far beyond that, though, and presumes that the psychopath's agenda includes sadism, or deliberately causing pain for its own sake. Is this an essential element of psychopathy as well?

I would like to understand this better, too.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Is there? I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I thought psychopathy involved detachment from and disinterest in others, with the focus on what benefits oneself. I can see this leading to refusal to consider the needs of others, resulting in significant but unintentional hurt to others as the psychopath pursues his/her own agenda. The kind of killing and abuse described in many posts here goes far beyond that, though, and presumes that the psychopath's agenda includes sadism, or deliberately causing pain for its own sake. Is this an essential element of psychopathy as well?

I would like to understand this better, too.

What you describe could also be something like Aspbergers which has a hyper-focus and can result in a lack of empathy, but is in no way connected to rage. A person with Aspbergers can be morally well developed, but they just overlook moments of empathy when focused on something else.

In more reading "psychopathy" is not as formal a term as I was considering, so sociopathy is the better term to research. It seems like the underlying question is whether sociopathy can exist without sadism. Both terms fall under Antisocial personality disorder. These attachment disorders I have read tend to result from problems with the process of infant separating from its mother into an individual. When the mother is neglectful or abusive, this process is thwarted and a sense of Self and Other does not develop normally. The best definition for this issue is found under the antisocial personality disorder:

Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "... a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1] They have an "impoverished moral sense or conscience" and may have a "history of crime, legal problems, impulsive and aggressive behaviour." ASPD falls under the dramatic/erratic cluster of personality disorders.[2]

 

[Redbone]

Is there? I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I thought psychopathy involved detachment from and disinterest in others, with the focus on what benefits oneself. I can see this leading to refusal to consider the needs of others, resulting in significant but unintentional hurt to others as the psychopath pursues his/her own agenda. The kind of killing and abuse described in many posts here goes far beyond that, though, and presumes that the psychopath's agenda includes sadism, or deliberately causing pain for its own sake. Is this an essential element of psychopathy as well?

I would like to understand this better, too.

Good question. It looks like this girl absorbed the kind of treatment she endured as 'normal' behavior. Perhaps that why her treatment was so effective as well? It seemed to me at the end, she was looking to see if her responses were the desired ones.

Ah...I see [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] answered this above.

 

[21%]

Sorry I missed this earlier.

I honestly don't know.

But in my time as a parent, none of my kids -- despite being pissed off at us to the point of trying to run away from home -- never took knives from the drawer, never killed animals, never physically abused each other repeatedly in traumatic ways (although there were a few heated moments of scuffle). Nor did I talk to any other parents with kids who did these things, regardless of how much the child felt they hated the parent.

In the few cases I'm personally acquainted with, the risk of permanent physical harm ran very high and wasn't just a bluff per se. Yes, there was likely an element of control to it as well, as part of attention-seeking, but this isn't a typical way in which children seek attention... there are many more ways a six-year-old can get attention.

Yeah, I agree that her behavior is not normal, but she was abused and lost her innocence at a very young age, so that must have contributed to it. Still, I have this uncanny feeling that the adults have put the words in her mouth -- like how she knew exactly how her dad used to abuse her, and how well she responded to 'suggestions' by the interviewer and ended up agreeing to everything he said -- it's like the adults pieced together her story and then told it to her so that it formed part of her self-perception (e.g. "You were abused so you are now messed up and bad")

I know there must be some elements of truth that started off the whole thing, but maybe there is nothing especially 'evil' about her -- only the fact that she is intelligent and articulate enough to be coherent in the interview. And to be honest I'm a bit suspicious of the seemingly miraculous cure at the end.

I still don't think she killed the baby birds, since she doesn't remember anything about it. If anything, it could have been an accident and she was too little to understand what was going on. I believe she took the knives and I believe she had every intention of hurting her brother. My friend was repeatedly beaten up by her older sister when she was young, and she would say things like how she wished her sister was dead, and that was from a relatively 'normal' family. I understand why Beth would feel this rage to hurt the world, but I don't think she's close to being a cold-blooded murderer.

However, I totally agree she needed therapy. If she was 6 when they shot the documentary in 1989 that makes her around my age now. Wiki says she is currently doing well and is working as a nurse. If that's the case then I'm happy for her.

Anyway, again this is pure speculation based on nothing

 

[Thalassa]

I am not completely misunderstanding. I am exploring the limits of your statement, to make sure I do understand. I'm not sure an unintelligent psychopath would be safer. They might act on their baser instincts more readily, without the intelligence to realize it is not the way to get ahead. If the intelligent ones can play the game better, which entails following certain rules to avoid being penalized, they may do less harm overall. They in fact may end up doing what the rest of us do in many cases, though out of very different motivations.

I include myself in "the intelligent" and don't think myself dangerous at all, but there's a difference between IQ and EQ. If this person has high IQ and pretty much non-existent EQ (let's say the opposite of Down's Syndrome, who often appear to have high EQ and non-existent or low IQ scores) then she's to my mind phenomenally dangerous. People with high IQs and fair-to-middlin' EQs can be troubling enough without one who completely misunderstands it.

I do agree that intelligent people can operate to escape consequences for themselves, but it also makes it more likely that she's putting on a show right now and has no business working in pediatrics.

 

[Thalassa]

Hmmm interesting observations but i'm not sure i entirely agree, i would say that some autistic individuals find it difficult to understand things from others perspectives but they do have very real and reactionary feelings... even if they do not completely understand them (most are very capable of it). Also some autistic persons are empaths. I don't think attachment is so much of a problem, i have seen dozens and dozens of autistic children and adults all with very firm attachments. Change however and possibly new attachment they (generally) can have difficulty with.

It is common as i mentioned before hand for autistic individuals to have larger than usual eyes... unsure of the mouth...

My daughters eyes...

View attachment 9679

My niece is Aspie and has exceptionally LARGE eyes.

She's the one on the left (both are nieces but left has Aspergers). There's not a shred of cruelty or deadness in her eyes.

Your daughter does not have eyes like Beth, either.

I am sensitive to your pain, but honestly feel like you and Ivy are projecting something on to this that just does not exist.

 

[Thalassa]

Yeah, I agree that her behavior is not normal, but she was abused and lost her innocence at a very young age, so that must have contributed to it. Still, I have this uncanny feeling that the adults have put the words in her mouth -- like how she knew exactly how her dad used to abuse her, and how well she responded to 'suggestions' by the interviewer and ended up agreeing to everything he said -- it's like the adults pieced together her story and then told it to her so that it formed part of her self-perception (e.g. "You were abused so you are now messed up and bad")

I know there must be some elements of truth that started off the whole thing, but maybe there is nothing especially 'evil' about her -- only the fact that she is intelligent and articulate enough to be coherent in the interview. And to be honest I'm a bit suspicious of the seemingly miraculous cure at the end.

I still don't think she killed the baby birds, since she doesn't remember anything about it. If anything, it could have been an accident and she was too little to understand what was going on. I believe she took the knives and I believe she had every intention of hurting her brother. My friend was repeatedly beaten up by her older sister when she was young, and she would say things like how she wished her sister was dead, and that was from a relatively 'normal' family. I understand why Beth would feel this rage to hurt the world, but I don't think she's close to being a cold-blooded murderer.

However, I totally agree she needed therapy. If she was 6 when they shot the documentary in 1989 that makes her around my age now. Wiki says she is currently doing well and is working as a nurse. If that's the case then I'm happy for her.

Anyway, again this is pure speculation based on nothing

She discusses her plans for cruelty or death so calmly, this is the trait of the psychopath or sociopath.

She's 6, she's not crying or screaming or acting awkwardly, she's straight forwardly telling you how she's going to stab people in the night.

I'm so touched that everyone here is so compassionate, but I almost feel like I'm so compassionate that I'm also overly sensitive to cruelty, and this kid is NOT normal.

This is not "oh I'm so sad or angry I want to hurt Daddy." This is so cold, it's weird.

That's how psychopaths are, because of abnormally high serotonin. It's been linked "officially" to ASPD.

 

[Thalassa]

Well there was a lot of mention of her physically abusing her brother and causing him much pain. There was also the basement incident where she aparently repeatedly hit his head on the concrete... i think it said he was bleeding and had to go to the hospital... not entirely sure.

I believe everytime she hurt anyone she was reinacting herself being hurt... reliving the trauma. I have seen this happen irl... becomming stuck in the reinactment and loosing control.

Obviously i do not advocate this, it's terribly dangerous and her poor brother. There should be a way of her letting this go without harming others as fia?someone? said earlier. If it could be reinacted in a safe way and the ending could be measured and someone could explain to her what is happening and talk through the process... i'm not an expert but it feels like the right direction.

Yeah I'd like to know about her brother too and I think not focusing on his own abuse at her hands is a bit sick.

 

[Lark]

They can figure out how to get away with so much more. It enables them to be the one who manipulates and harms others. Who could do more damage over a lifetime: a psychopathic thug or psychiatrist?

Perhaps, I would say that they harm the same amount of people only that they are different people and the harm is of a different order perhaps.

Most of the damaged people who go around hurting others are pathetic in my experience and not very intelligent, I knew one who insisted on using words he didnt know the meaning of and wouldnt be corrected about it either, the same individuals are totally dependent upon people being unwary, unsuspecting and the fact that most people are conditioned to respond to truly horrendous acts by thinking "did they? No, no that's that possible, could they? No", no one wants to believe it when they first guess it, usually because most acts of violence or harm are from people that are known to the target and not complete strangers.

Predatory types are also desperate and compulsive types, the sorts of thought and focus that would go into policing them or catching them is something they would find pretty flattering and which would fufil some of their needs, what the rest of the population are left to decide is whether they are going to do that, for most people its a lot of work and by the point at which they've realised they dont have much choice in the matter if they want to remain safe they'll already have survived a number of actions by the same individuals.

Sometimes I think the viking traditions of outlawing people, meaning that outlaws do not have protection of the law and are enemies of the people and anyone who wants to kill them can, seems like a good idea.

 

[Betty Blue]

My niece is Aspie and has exceptionally LARGE eyes.

She's the one on the left (both are nieces but left has Aspergers). There's not a shred of cruelty or deadness in her eyes.

Your daughter does not have eyes like Beth, either.

I am sensitive to your pain, but honestly feel like you and Ivy are projecting something on to this that just does not exist.

I'm not in pain marm, i feel truely blessed. I do get cross that the world has not yet caught up but maybe that's what you meant.

Regarding Beth I wasn't making a judgement call either way but i think you were and that was what i was unsure about. You seemed to have decided bluntly that this was and is a sick individual who can't be helped. I tend to view these things differently and i do not believe it's projecting.

I do think having children with special needs has taught me patience and to observe more before judging (in some situations anyway) but i don't think thats the same as projecting here.

 

[Betty Blue]

I found a site discussing the documentary and it was interesting to see similar threads of thought running through. Even the discoveries and timeline of it... very interesting... the conclusions drawn were similar too and all the info found... anyway here

http://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/1bmtsf/child_of_rage_one_of_the_most_disturbing/


The only (questionable) evidence i saw that was new (if actually Beth) was thsi...

http://www.justmugshots.com/indiana/richmond/103587

I'm not convinced it's her though, those eyes do not appear to be blue and i have a feeling the documentary was not in Indiana... but close enough to post.

 

[Betty Blue]

I have found out some more info on Nancy Thomas (Beth's 2nd adoptive mother)...here...

http://www.attachment.org/nancy-thomas/

Also she is still practising as of 2012...

http://www.respiteretreat.org/Who-is-Nancy-Thomas.html

Will try and find the radio show if i can

 

[Betty Blue]

I have found out some more info on Nancy Thomas (Beth's 2nd adoptive mother)...here...

http://www.attachment.org/nancy-thomas/

Also she is still practising as of 2012...

http://www.respiteretreat.org/Who-is-Nancy-Thomas.html

Will try and find the radio show if i can

EDit: Seems no archives are to be found, you can only buy the cd of the radio sessions now.

EDIT 2:... I did find this recent youtube vid on Nancy Thomas... if i was stateside i might call that number (If not a premium rate number)

 

[Ivy]

I'm not in pain marm, i feel truely blessed. I do get cross that the world has not yet caught up but maybe that's what you meant.

Regarding Beth I wasn't making a judgement call either way but i think you were and that was what i was unsure about. You seemed to have decided bluntly that this was and is a sick individual who can't be helped. I tend to view these things differently and i do not believe it's projecting.

I do think having children with special needs has taught me patience and to observe more before judging (in some situations anyway) but i don't think thats the same as projecting here.

I'm just going to pretend I posted this, is that okay? I'm not in pain- my son is amazing. I get irritated with people who have preconceived notions, that's all. Having him has helped me tune in to people who are "off" in some way and be more compassionate and less quick to jump to conclusions about their character.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

You know, some of the discussion in this thread just now made me think of Tracy Morgan. "That goat has devil eyes!"

 

[Ivy]

You know, some of the discussion in this thread just now made me think of Tracy Morgan. "That goat has devil eyes!"

OMG! That is EXACTLY what has been going through my head. Is it great minds or simple minds that think alike?