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"Child of rage" documentary

Lark

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Honest stuff here..

I know what this girl is and all, but to be completely honest her eyes don't scare me and neither does anything about the way she acts, really. She strikes me as a badass, in a sense that I actually admire. All sociopaths do, actually. Sometimes I wish I were a sociopath, does that make me fucked up?

They lack something that normal people have, something that I see as pathetic. It's hard to put a finger on and define it exactly. Sociopaths are believers. If they believe in pure hatred and malice, at least they believe in something. Normal people are afraid to believe in anything so wholeheartedly. Maybe that's it. And you can see it in their confidence. When I look at that girl in the video, I think she is amazing.. thrilling.. powerful.. even godlike. And I love her eyes, and her unabashedness. I find her desire for existential revenge and desecration totally relatable. She is a product of the nightmare world she was born into, and there is a kind of beauty in nightmares. I honestly think she is a lovely child and hope god has mercy on her.

Now... don't get me wrong, when I hear about someone being a sociopath or suspect it IRL, I immediately stay as far away from that person as possible, because I know what's good for me. It would be incredibly ignorant to voluntarily try to "help" a sociopath. It is indeed tragic that others will become victims of this sort of thing. That girl's brother? I can't imagine how horrible it must be for him. I dunno why this sort of shit happens. Then again, I've never been exposed to it, it is totally alien to me. Things I don't know...

No, I dont think you're fucked up, I just think that you've been influenced by a media construct of what a sociopath is.

There's also a lot of people who are troubled by being conscientious to the point of being nuerotic about it, they can get caught up by the social machinery which is meant to arrest the behaviour of lazy or selfish individuals easily and resent it, sometimes they get caught up in it when they know of other more deserving candidates for it are breezing by it all or they may even know that the people administering it are the people its meant to catch.

Sociopaths are not any more admirable or commendable than someone who is a savant or autistic or on the aspergers spectrum or who has ADHD. I think there's less of them than there are imitators of them, sadists usually, or people who've "hardened their hearts", ie repressed emotions and emotional responses, and have to continually do so because they're trying very hard not to feel difficult or painful emotional states, different sorts of narcissistic states are associated with the neurotic conscientiousness and apparent lack of conscience, its called being highly deployed, being very highly defensive and false and phony in order to avoid the shattering of personal illusions and a confrontation with reality, including the reality of the self.

The majority of people I know who exhibit these sorts of things are pathetic individuals, with completed or incomplete schemes to hurt others, constantly playing games with others and very, very responsive to any suggestion from others or their environment, like watching TV shows and wanting to act on their content in ways that are compulsive. None of them can simply shrug or deal with being hurt and they'll hurt others to see the hurt in them and pride themselves on not feeling that way themselves. The fear of being victimised is so great that they'll victimise others in the belief they're safe from the roles ever being reversed that way, that's an awful thing to behold when you know that its deep seated and they're just going to carry on hurting people repeatedly to provide that false security to themselves. The reaction from them when they cant evoke the expected or hoped for emotional response is something else.

Those kinds of desperate strategies of relating to others are all about a kind of neediness, its pathetic and the abnormal side of being properly related to the world and being capable of independence.
 

Lark

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This case is an interesting one because the child is pretty articulate, verbal, engaged in the process and, apparently, reflective but perhaps all the non-verbal, behavioural, resistant and destructive side preceeded these interviews.

I've known adults with the benefits of years who're not able or willing to engage as the kid does in the first seven minutes of the video. I've not watched it all but I plan to.
 

Lark

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Worst case scenario, she may not have a conscience, but it seems pretty clear that her sadistic desires have been managed.

Functional sociopaths aren't stupid - even though they wouldn't feel remorse about torturing/killing a person, they are able to learn that the consequences aren't worth it.

That's the important point.

I also think there's a big difference between sadism and sociopathy, for instance are sociopaths going to interested what compells sadists? Sadists, some theorists have suggested, are really all sadomasochists because their compulsive natures involve a masochistic dependency upon the individuals they have objectified.

There's also sociological and structural explanations for these kinds of behaviours, there's good theories about how managerialism and middle management require the adoption of sadomasochistic traits, revering superiors, despising subordinates, and I've seen that a lot. Although that is not the exact same as a pathological sadomasochist and its different again from sociopathy.

The whole philosophical dimension, what people find admirable about either sort of behaviour or individual is another question and pretty poor reflection of the world as it is.
 

zago

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Well, I think sociopaths are interesting because they are like predatory animals who can talk. You can't ask a lion what's going through his head when he maims and kills his prey. It would be interesting as hell if you could, though.
 

Lexicon

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Well, I think sociopaths are interesting because they are like predatory animals who can talk. You can't ask a lion what's going through his head when he maims and kills his prey. It would be interesting as hell if you could, though.

I'm assuming the answer would be this (kind of):

tumblr_m8v12vDhNx1r3zypyo1_500.jpg


::edit::

here we go

om_nom_nom_lion_by_icewindwarrior-d46myo4.jpg
 

Totenkindly

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i think they made a tv movie based on this story, i never saw it except for this very disturbing but hilarious clip

I know they made a TV movie of this....srsly?? This is so bad!!!!

I need to get me a sweet daddy bear!!
 

Lark

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I think this thread has been the most interesting thing in months.
[MENTION=4489]zago[/MENTION]

Is anything they say worthwhile though? Its likely to be lies or game playing but I take your point if you're going to investigate predatory behaviour beyond instinct perhaps that's the place to look.
 

Betty Blue

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Here's a pic of my boy, who has autism. He's very unusual but there's not an evil or dishonest bone in his body. When I posted this pic on Facebook I got a note in my inbox about his "scary" eyes.

View attachment 9676

How bizarre, he has beautiful eyes! My daughter (also autistic) has huge abyss eyes too... i actually think it's a common characteristic, but to me they are more 'look after my physical needs' eyes than anything else.... similar to the bush baby effect. So much going on behind them though and so much misinterpretation and misinformation about the autistic mind esp re:intelligence.
 
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Magic Poriferan

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yes. I mean, it's not a lot different in some ways than having your own bio kid -- you never know what you'll get, and then you deal with it or not. (For example, my younger son was born with cystic fibrosis -- totally caught us off-guard.) There are things you just rise to the occasion for because you are a parent and you are connected to your child. However, different people deal better or worse with different ailments; for example, if my son had needed full-time care or had been intellectually disabled in some way, that would have been much harder for me than a physical ailment. Still... it's your child.

maybe an adopted child has different dynamics, when there are unexpected problems.



That seems a pretty bold claim, considering there could be a silent crowd out there who just doesn't talk about it to maintain privacy, and people tend to be far more public about things they do not like vs things they do. (Just work in customer service for a day.) I don't know.

I did watch all the video. What Beth undertook was very very strenuous -- they basically took away all her freedom, until she learned she could trust the people in charge of her life and built a connection with them, and then they slowly gave her control back as she proved trustworthy. That sounds horribly drastic; then again, she was killing animals, beating up her little brother constantly to the point of hospital visits, and had taken knives and was talking about stabbing her family to death while she slept, which is also pretty drastic. Maybe if things are bad enough, you essentially have to start over at the point where kids normally develop attachment and go from there. But it does mean the adults involved have to be beyond reproach and have an immense responsibility, with the role they are forcing themselves to play in the child's life.

Also, I think Attachment Therapy/Parenting covers a lot of ground -- it's an umbrella term and could involve a range of techniques -- so I don't know if criticism of one type is indicative of another. Or am I misunderstanding AT?

Yes. I'd be worried about this sort of therapy being applied to any child that happens to be troublesome, but Beth's case was so severe that one wonders what the alternative would be. I suppose she was going to be in jail or a ward anyhow, possibly only after doing something terrible.

Hooray, now from her mere picture we've figured out she's (1) an ESFJ and (2) the spawn of Satan's seed.

Anyone want to volunteer the third side of this sordid triangle? :ninja:

She must be a Republican.
 

Betty Blue

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I wonder that too and why she was given a male therapist after being molested as a baby.

The whole documentary seems off when you re-watch it. It's like she was trained to answer in a specific way... she has feelers out to see if she is doing a good job. She seems terribly afraid too, constantly checking for approval before continuing. Even at one point the male therapist corrects her... when she talks about the birds being dead he says "mom told me that you killed them, did you squeeze them?" or somesuch then she says she did... and he says "it's ok it's hard to remember" like he's coaching and reassuring her it's fixed.

What i see is possibly quite different to you (and others) i'm sure.

I see a terribly abused child abusing others to stop the hurt within and then getting put into a system when she is further abused. And it would not be the first time, systematic abuse is rife in areas of the already abused, the mentally ill, aged etc... all who are less able to take care of themselves.
Weather or not she is a sociopath/psychopath i'm not convinced.

It actually reminds me of a child in a book i read, a true story concerning a child put in a special education class who was torturing animals...and generally wild and unteachable. This child, with help, did seem to adapt (somewhat) but i suppose who really knows.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Does anyone know what happened to her brother?

One other observation I just remembered from the video is that when she talked about stabbing her family with the knives, she wanted to do it at night so they could feel it, but not see her. The image she drew of her molestation had her violator behind her where she could not see him.

She also spoke many times of wanting her brother and parents dead, but when asked if the baby birds were dead, she said that when her parents saw them, they said the birds were dead, and therefore they were. She seemed unable to identify on her own judgment if they were dead. Children have trouble understanding death at that stage of life, so I found that interesting.

The attachment therapy that they showed did seem strange to me as well. I will have to study it a bit more before having a conclusion. Individuals who have been violated need to have an avenue to express their rage. They need a process to get it out of their system without hurting others. They also need to experience healthy feelings of empowerment. What they do when reenacting the harm on others to regain control is in some ways the right idea, but just misdirected.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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After reading all the updates on the thread, there is one assumption I would like to point out as inaccurate. A socio/psychopath is not necessarily someone who blatantly murders people and ends up in prison. There are high-functioning individuals with the disorder who express their need to harm and exert control in ways that are acceptable in society, and/or in ways they can get away with in society. Such individuals will seek out the vulnerable who are unable to mount a defense. The sociopaths that fill our prisons tend to be lower on the socio-economic ladder and so are not likely to benefit as much from its laws.

There are a number of professions that would be especially attractive to individuals with these disorders including medicine, behavioral sciences, business, performing arts, politics, etc. Professions in which competitive and ruthless behaviors are accepted, ones in which the individual can make life-and-death decisions, and those that control the emotional and psychological responses of crowds of people would be especially attractive. Just because someone isn't in prison does not mean that they are not causing tremendous harm to other people. They just figure out who they can get away with harming and stick to focusing their rage on those people.

You cannot read a bio at a distance, see that the person is not incarcerated, and then determine that they are psychologically healthy and functioning in society. You have to know them personally and witness first-hand the destruction of ruined lives they leave in their paths. This can include psychological and physical harm and even murders that cannot be identified or defended against.
 

Totenkindly

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Does anyone know what happened to her brother?

No, I'm not sure. He was younger; he was neglected for the early months of his life, but I'm not sure if he was directly abused like she was.

There was a comment on one of the blogs, from a reader who said, "The update of Beth's story explains that after Beth stayed with Nancy Thomas, she returned home for a visit. Her did not return her to Nancy Thomas but instead placed her with an aunt while waiting for a facility to open that would care for her. She was placed in the facility and the parents eventually chose to legally abandoned her. That's when Nancy Thomas found her again and adopted her. My question is what happened when Beth returned home? Why did the parents not allow her to go back to stay with Nancy Thomas? Why did they finally decide to legally abandon her? In the documentary she seems to have made serious progress by the end. I'm wondering if she regressed once she went back home. The adoptive parents seem very kind and caring and Nancy Thomas praises them highly in the documentary. Also, what happened to Beth's brother? Did he stay in the adoptive home? I wonder if Beth has contact with the adoptive parents now and/or her brother? She is a nurse but also lectures across the country with Nancy Thomas. I wonder if anyone has asked these questions of her, I haven't found any information after extensive Google research."

But that doesn't reveal much more than we already know.


One other observation I just remembered from the video is that when she talked about stabbing her family with the knives, she wanted to do it at night so they could feel it, but not see her. The image she drew of her molestation had her violator behind her where she could not see him.

Good observation.

She also spoke many times of wanting her brother and parents dead, but when asked if the baby birds were dead, she said that when her parents saw them, they said the birds were dead, and therefore they were. She seemed unable to identify on her own judgment if they were dead. Children have trouble understanding death at that stage of life, so I found that interesting.

I noticed that too. She also thought the baby birds could run away and were hard to catch, despite the psychologist's questions. I wasn't sure how to interpret it. Was she confused about death? Was she embarrassed on some level? Was she avoiding guilt? I don't know. She was so matter of fact, it was hard to read anything underneath.

The attachment therapy that they showed did seem strange to me as well. I will have to study it a bit more before having a conclusion. Individuals who have been violated need to have an avenue to express their rage. They need a process to get it out of their system without hurting others. They also need to experience healthy feelings of empowerment. What they do when reenacting the harm on others to regain control is in some ways the right idea, but just misdirected.

When I was in high school, I had a few unsettling experiences about wanting to hurt my father. He was rather a bully, would talk over me literally all the time instead of listening to me, ruined pretty any family holidays, and was easier to just avoid than try to relate to. He was so hard to deal with, it was difficult to have any kind of conversation with him without it esalating quickly into a screaming match or a, "Go outside / hide in your room to get away" debacle. Outside the house, he was respected in a certain circle of his professional peers, and they only saw the good things about him without understanding what it was like to live with an alcoholic narcissist, where he literally trampled everyone's boundaries day in and day out (if he was present at all). This was high school, mind you -- not a young child -- but inside I think I had a potential for a lot of anger because of the situation. One night he was sleeping, drunk, in the living room chair; I was standing in the kitchen and literally felt a physical compulsion to take one of the knives and stab him to death, over and over. it freaked me out, and I left the room in order to get away from the source of temptation.

I don't think I would have had such a strong urge, if I had had a viable outlet for my anger toward him, but I had nothing -- no voice, no way to negotiate, no one who understood or would believe what I had to say. I interpreted it as me defending myself (proactively, while he was vulnerable) and venting all of that bile out of myself. Normally I stuffed all my anger so I wasn't even aware it existed (that was my coping mechanism), until it would come out in the dark and in moments where it made sense.

So I think you have something here. I don't considering myself a psychopath and typically such an act would be unthinkable for me, but the lack of outlet for dealing with him... well, it's like when you don't have anything else, you're reduced to primal "fight or flight" rage. I can't imagine how worse it is when you're a young child, so you don't have the life experience to really frame everything, nor the words to articulate everything, and you're still physically, mentally, and emotionally vulnerable to your abusers.
 

greenfairy

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Hooray, now from her mere picture we've figured out she's (1) an ESFJ and (2) the spawn of Satan's seed.

Anyone want to volunteer the third side of this sordid triangle? :ninja:

Well, I definitely don't think the second is true; I don't even know if she is a sociopath; I just think it's likely she is at a low stage of moral development (though higher than where she started). And I was typing her by everything I know about her, not just the picture. Mostly by how well she responded to the treatment and how she internalized her mother's values.
 

Totenkindly

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Well, I definitely don't think the second is true; I don't even know if she is a sociopath; I just think it's likely she is at a low stage of moral development (though higher than where she started). And I was typing her by everything I know about her, not just the picture. Mostly by how well she responded to the treatment and how she internalized her mother's values.

I'll just quote your prior post I was responding to:
I also think she seems like an ESFJ. That was my impression of her adult picture.

------------

She must be a Republican.

ESFJ, Spawn of Satan, and a black Republican.

Well, I think that's a wrap, peeps! Ciao!
 

Betty Blue

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I found this article which seems relevant, going over more of the same but maybe more explanatory, detailed. In it Beth is thought to be undiagnosed with sociopathy/paychopathy...

"Reactive Attachment Disorder is characterized by markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate ways of relating socially. It can take the form of a persistent failure to initiate or respond to social interactions in an appropriate way—known as the “inhibited” form—or can present itself as indiscriminate sociability, such as excessive familiarity with strangers—known as the “disinhibited form“. Beth’s condition involved a complete inability to bond with any human being and a complete lack of empathy. This is also known as sociopathy or psychopathy although those terms are not used about children under the age of 18."



http://jl10ll.wordpress.com/tag/rage/


EDit: Also the man interviewing Beth was a Dr.Magid. Now deceased. Reading his Alumni biog it's (unrealted...ish) interesting to read that his mother was a wasp and his father was named Louise!

http://www.iowalum.com/voyagers/scholarship_bio.cfm
 

21%

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The whole documentary seems off when you re-watch it. It's like she was trained to answer in a specific way... she has feelers out to see if she is doing a good job. She seems terribly afraid too, constantly checking for approval before continuing. Even at one point the male therapist corrects her... when she talks about the birds being dead he says "mom told me that you killed them, did you squeeze them?" or somesuch then she says she did... and he says "it's ok it's hard to remember" like he's coaching and reassuring her it's fixed.

What i see is possibly quite different to you (and others) i'm sure.
My feelings too! I felt like the interviewer was really leading the conversation to the direction that he wanted it to go -- trying to make her sound more 'messed up' than she really is.

I know she talks about killing her brother and adoptive parents, but for some reason I don't believe she was really going to do it. I mean, if she wanted them dead she would have really tried to do something already, especially if she had gotten hold of the knives. It could be that 'being bad' got her attention, so she kept at it. Talking about killing people got responses out of the adults, and sometimes kids in unstructured lives would do things like this to challenge the authority and test their own powers.
 

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I'll just quote your prior post I was responding to:

Well yeah, but everything I know about her was in my mind when I was looking at the picture. The smile looked like those I'd seen on people I suspected were ESFJ's, so I thought about it, and it fit given everything else. That's kind of how it works.

Is there some problem with typing her and thinking there's something significant in the fact that she appears to be conservative?
 

Totenkindly

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Well yeah, but everything I know about her was in my mind when I was looking at the picture. The smile looked like those I'd seen on people I suspected were ESFJ's, so I thought about it, and it fit given everything else. That's kind of how it works.

I see. "She smiled like people I've assumed were ESFJs, and it fit what other gossip I read in the thread."

Because, honestly, that's what's been going on here.
Lots of speculation, not yet a lot of confirmation.
 
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