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  1. #121
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So being bright and articulate makes someone dangerous? Is it better for the morally confused to be stupid or slow? It seems that would make it easier for the unscrupulous to manipulate them.
    I dont know that being bright or articulate make people dangerous, perhaps, although I dont think its a given.

  2. #122
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know that being bright or articulate make people dangerous, perhaps, although I dont think its a given.
    They can figure out how to get away with so much more. It enables them to be the one who manipulates and harms others. Who could do more damage over a lifetime: a psychopathic thug or psychiatrist?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  3. #123
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    .now we have you completely misunderstanding that I'm saying ALL intelligent people are more dangerous. NO. People with violent personality disorders and psychopathy are more dangerous if intelligent.
    I am not completely misunderstanding. I am exploring the limits of your statement, to make sure I do understand. I'm not sure an unintelligent psychopath would be safer. They might act on their baser instincts more readily, without the intelligence to realize it is not the way to get ahead. If the intelligent ones can play the game better, which entails following certain rules to avoid being penalized, they may do less harm overall. They in fact may end up doing what the rest of us do in many cases, though out of very different motivations.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #124
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am not completely misunderstanding. I am exploring the limits of your statement, to make sure I do understand. I'm not sure an unintelligent psychopath would be safer. They might act on their baser instincts more readily, without the intelligence to realize it is not the way to get ahead. If the intelligent ones can play the game better, which entails following certain rules to avoid being penalized, they may do less harm overall. They in fact may end up doing what the rest of us do in many cases, though out of very different motivations.
    I know this isn't part of my statement, but I am still interested in exploring it. A functioning psychopath would tend to still deal with rage and have opportunities to do harm and get away with it. There are so many opportunities for people to do terrible harm within the constraints of the law, or even by skirting the law, or outright hiding from it. I would suggest that an unintelligent psychopath will likely end up in prison or dead after a few years of crossing the lines with the more clever and more enraged.

    A "functioning" psychopath can marry a compliant, abusable partner, psychologically abuse their children and physically abuse them right up to the edge of being caught, they can make professional choices for the purpose of ruining lives, but using a disguise of good business, or even charity in working with the most vulnerable populations. If they can continue to function throughout a lifetime, the number of ruined lives can be incalculable. I don't think a functioning psychopath is someone who is just a tough business person who makes millions. There is still a need to destroy lives.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #125
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    A "functioning" psychopath can marry a compliant, abusable partner, psychologically abuse their children and physically abuse them right up to the edge of being caught, they can make professional choices for the purpose of ruining lives, but using a disguise of good business, or even charity in working with the most vulnerable populations. If they can continue to function throughout a lifetime, the number of ruined lives can be incalculable. I don't think a functioning psychopath is someone who is just a tough business person who makes millions. There is still a need to destroy lives.
    Is there? I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I thought psychopathy involved detachment from and disinterest in others, with the focus on what benefits oneself. I can see this leading to refusal to consider the needs of others, resulting in significant but unintentional hurt to others as the psychopath pursues his/her own agenda. The kind of killing and abuse described in many posts here goes far beyond that, though, and presumes that the psychopath's agenda includes sadism, or deliberately causing pain for its own sake. Is this an essential element of psychopathy as well?

    I would like to understand this better, too.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #126
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Is there? I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I thought psychopathy involved detachment from and disinterest in others, with the focus on what benefits oneself. I can see this leading to refusal to consider the needs of others, resulting in significant but unintentional hurt to others as the psychopath pursues his/her own agenda. The kind of killing and abuse described in many posts here goes far beyond that, though, and presumes that the psychopath's agenda includes sadism, or deliberately causing pain for its own sake. Is this an essential element of psychopathy as well?

    I would like to understand this better, too.
    What you describe could also be something like Aspbergers which has a hyper-focus and can result in a lack of empathy, but is in no way connected to rage. A person with Aspbergers can be morally well developed, but they just overlook moments of empathy when focused on something else.

    In more reading "psychopathy" is not as formal a term as I was considering, so sociopathy is the better term to research. It seems like the underlying question is whether sociopathy can exist without sadism. Both terms fall under Antisocial personality disorder. These attachment disorders I have read tend to result from problems with the process of infant separating from its mother into an individual. When the mother is neglectful or abusive, this process is thwarted and a sense of Self and Other does not develop normally. The best definition for this issue is found under the antisocial personality disorder:

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "... a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1] They have an "impoverished moral sense or conscience" and may have a "history of crime, legal problems, impulsive and aggressive behaviour." ASPD falls under the dramatic/erratic cluster of personality disorders.[2]
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #127
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Is there? I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I thought psychopathy involved detachment from and disinterest in others, with the focus on what benefits oneself. I can see this leading to refusal to consider the needs of others, resulting in significant but unintentional hurt to others as the psychopath pursues his/her own agenda. The kind of killing and abuse described in many posts here goes far beyond that, though, and presumes that the psychopath's agenda includes sadism, or deliberately causing pain for its own sake. Is this an essential element of psychopathy as well?

    I would like to understand this better, too.
    Good question. It looks like this girl absorbed the kind of treatment she endured as 'normal' behavior. Perhaps that why her treatment was so effective as well? It seemed to me at the end, she was looking to see if her responses were the desired ones.

    Ah...I see @fia answered this above.

  8. #128
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sorry I missed this earlier.

    I honestly don't know.

    But in my time as a parent, none of my kids -- despite being pissed off at us to the point of trying to run away from home -- never took knives from the drawer, never killed animals, never physically abused each other repeatedly in traumatic ways (although there were a few heated moments of scuffle). Nor did I talk to any other parents with kids who did these things, regardless of how much the child felt they hated the parent.

    In the few cases I'm personally acquainted with, the risk of permanent physical harm ran very high and wasn't just a bluff per se. Yes, there was likely an element of control to it as well, as part of attention-seeking, but this isn't a typical way in which children seek attention... there are many more ways a six-year-old can get attention.
    Yeah, I agree that her behavior is not normal, but she was abused and lost her innocence at a very young age, so that must have contributed to it. Still, I have this uncanny feeling that the adults have put the words in her mouth -- like how she knew exactly how her dad used to abuse her, and how well she responded to 'suggestions' by the interviewer and ended up agreeing to everything he said -- it's like the adults pieced together her story and then told it to her so that it formed part of her self-perception (e.g. "You were abused so you are now messed up and bad")

    I know there must be some elements of truth that started off the whole thing, but maybe there is nothing especially 'evil' about her -- only the fact that she is intelligent and articulate enough to be coherent in the interview. And to be honest I'm a bit suspicious of the seemingly miraculous cure at the end.

    I still don't think she killed the baby birds, since she doesn't remember anything about it. If anything, it could have been an accident and she was too little to understand what was going on. I believe she took the knives and I believe she had every intention of hurting her brother. My friend was repeatedly beaten up by her older sister when she was young, and she would say things like how she wished her sister was dead, and that was from a relatively 'normal' family. I understand why Beth would feel this rage to hurt the world, but I don't think she's close to being a cold-blooded murderer.

    However, I totally agree she needed therapy. If she was 6 when they shot the documentary in 1989 that makes her around my age now. Wiki says she is currently doing well and is working as a nurse. If that's the case then I'm happy for her.

    Anyway, again this is pure speculation based on nothing
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am not completely misunderstanding. I am exploring the limits of your statement, to make sure I do understand. I'm not sure an unintelligent psychopath would be safer. They might act on their baser instincts more readily, without the intelligence to realize it is not the way to get ahead. If the intelligent ones can play the game better, which entails following certain rules to avoid being penalized, they may do less harm overall. They in fact may end up doing what the rest of us do in many cases, though out of very different motivations.
    I include myself in "the intelligent" and don't think myself dangerous at all, but there's a difference between IQ and EQ. If this person has high IQ and pretty much non-existent EQ (let's say the opposite of Down's Syndrome, who often appear to have high EQ and non-existent or low IQ scores) then she's to my mind phenomenally dangerous. People with high IQs and fair-to-middlin' EQs can be troubling enough without one who completely misunderstands it.

    I do agree that intelligent people can operate to escape consequences for themselves, but it also makes it more likely that she's putting on a show right now and has no business working in pediatrics.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Hmmm interesting observations but i'm not sure i entirely agree, i would say that some autistic individuals find it difficult to understand things from others perspectives but they do have very real and reactionary feelings... even if they do not completely understand them (most are very capable of it). Also some autistic persons are empaths. I don't think attachment is so much of a problem, i have seen dozens and dozens of autistic children and adults all with very firm attachments. Change however and possibly new attachment they (generally) can have difficulty with.

    It is common as i mentioned before hand for autistic individuals to have larger than usual eyes... unsure of the mouth...

    My daughters eyes...

    Attachment 9679
    My niece is Aspie and has exceptionally LARGE eyes.

    She's the one on the left (both are nieces but left has Aspergers). There's not a shred of cruelty or deadness in her eyes.



    Your daughter does not have eyes like Beth, either.

    I am sensitive to your pain, but honestly feel like you and Ivy are projecting something on to this that just does not exist.

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