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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This case is an interesting one because the child is pretty articulate, verbal, engaged in the process and, apparently, reflective but perhaps all the non-verbal, behavioural, resistant and destructive side preceeded these interviews.

    I've known adults with the benefits of years who're not able or willing to engage as the kid does in the first seven minutes of the video. I've not watched it all but I plan to.
    Thank you for being so keenly observant. That's why her moral confusion as an adult seems bizarre and absurd to me, because she's clearly a very articulate and bright individual.

    That makes her all the more dangerous, and all the more likely to learn how to game people.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    How bizarre, he has beautiful eyes! My daughter (also autistic) has huge abyss eyes too... i actually think it's a common characteristic, but to me they are more 'look after my physical needs' eyes than anything else.... similar to the bush baby effect. So much going on behind them though and so much misinterpretation and misinformation about the autistic mind esp re:intelligence.
    I want to discuss this eye thing. It's common knowledge that autistics' eyes focus on objects more than people, and in severe cases also have trouble bonding without therapy. Some people also say they have larger eyes and wider mouths.

    I think it's a bad idea to compare your autistic child's eye characteristics with that of a child who is clearly showing sociopathic tendencies. Many children who are sexually abused just end up histrionic or with BPD, and not murderous.

    There's a coldness in this woman's eyes (and in her eyes as a child) that I do not see in Ivy's son's eyes (not to mention she posted a singular photo from a particular angle, and we can freely observe Beth on video as well as a photo later in adulthood).

    I sometimes wonder if stuff like this is Se versus Ne or something, because people with certain disorders do indeed show particular physical characteristics and it's as old as the hills that you can see things in people's eyes i.e. "the window to the soul."

  3. #113
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Thank you for being so keenly observant. That's why her moral confusion as an adult seems bizarre and absurd to me, because she's clearly a very articulate and bright individual.

    That makes her all the more dangerous, and all the more likely to learn how to game people.
    So being bright and articulate makes someone dangerous? Is it better for the morally confused to be stupid or slow? It seems that would make it easier for the unscrupulous to manipulate them.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So being bright and articulate makes someone dangerous? Is it better for the morally confused to be stupid or slow? It seems that would make it easier for the unscrupulous to manipulate them.
    With her other symptoms, yes of course. The more intelligent a sociopath is the more dangerous they are because they are then capable of heights of manipulation than that which a less intelligent individual would be capable of.

    So far in this thread I've seen people try to say that someone's childhood behavior shouldn't have bearing on our rational analysis as an adult (um, no, actually childhood is one of the primary places we look to when psychologically analyzing anyone), people saying that we shouldn't judge people by their eyes (when it's been documented that people with varying neurological disorders do have strange eyes, and furthermore, of course autistics would show some similarity in eye characteristics because of their preference of objects over people and trouble bonding emotionally)...now we have you completely misunderstanding that I'm saying ALL intelligent people are more dangerous. NO. People with violent personality disorders and psychopathy are more dangerous if intelligent.

    All children who are sexually abused do not do the things this child did; furthermore, attachment therapy has been criticized by many as being unvalidated, made-up and having trouble attaching in childhood can mean a number of things ranging from autism to psychopathy, it's not some thing where we should just sit here and boo hoo because this was about a child.

    Children can kill people too, and this person isn't a child anymore.

  5. #115
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I want to discuss this eye thing. It's common knowledge that autistics' eyes focus on objects more than people, and in severe cases also have trouble bonding without therapy. Some people also say they have larger eyes and wider mouths.

    I think it's a bad idea to compare your autistic child's eye characteristics with that of a child who is clearly showing sociopathic tendencies. Many children who are sexually abused just end up histrionic or with BPD, and not murderous.

    There's a coldness in this woman's eyes (and in her eyes as a child) that I do not see in Ivy's son's eyes (not to mention she posted a singular photo from a particular angle, and we can freely observe Beth on video as well as a photo later in adulthood).

    I sometimes wonder if stuff like this is Se versus Ne or something, because people with certain disorders do indeed show particular physical characteristics and it's as old as the hills that you can see things in people's eyes i.e. "the window to the soul."
    I have not compared my son's eyes to Beth's- I compared the reaction of some people to his eyes to the reaction of some people to Beth's eyes. I posted the pic of his eyes along with the anecdote about people making comments about him similar to yours about Beth's to illustrate that the instinctive responses people have to someone's eyes cannot be used as evidence that that person is "wrong." It's very easy to say "oh yeah, I totally see the sociopathy in her eyes" when we already know so much about her behavior. That is a form of confirmation bias, and IMO a particularly risky kind, since it leads to not taking your own knee-jerk instinctive responses to people with the grain of salt that kind of judging by outward appearance requires. It's one thing to rely on your knee-jerk instinctive response to keep yourself safe in public- but another thing entirely to make assertions about a person's character based on their appearance.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I have not compared my son's eyes to Beth's- I compared the reaction of some people to his eyes to the reaction of some people to Beth's eyes. I posted the pic of his eyes along with the anecdote about people making comments about him similar to yours about Beth's to illustrate that the instinctive responses people have to someone's eyes cannot be used as evidence that that person is "wrong." It's very easy to say "oh yeah, I totally see the sociopathy in her eyes" when we already know so much about her behavior. That is a form of confirmation bias, and IMO a particularly risky kind, since it leads to not taking your own knee-jerk instinctive responses to people with the grain of salt that kind of judging by outward appearance requires. It's one thing to rely on your knee-jerk instinctive response to keep yourself safe in public- but another thing entirely to make assertions about a person's character based on their appearance.
    Mmhmm. I know what has kept me safe in life, and I know I would keep my eye on Beth.

  7. #117
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I want to discuss this eye thing. It's common knowledge that autistics' eyes focus on objects more than people, and in severe cases also have trouble bonding without therapy. Some people also say they have larger eyes and wider mouths.

    I think it's a bad idea to compare your autistic child's eye characteristics with that of a child who is clearly showing sociopathic tendencies. Many children who are sexually abused just end up histrionic or with BPD, and not murderous.

    There's a coldness in this woman's eyes (and in her eyes as a child) that I do not see in Ivy's son's eyes (not to mention she posted a singular photo from a particular angle, and we can freely observe Beth on video as well as a photo later in adulthood).

    I sometimes wonder if stuff like this is Se versus Ne or something, because people with certain disorders do indeed show particular physical characteristics and it's as old as the hills that you can see things in people's eyes i.e. "the window to the soul."

    Hmmm interesting observations but i'm not sure i entirely agree, i would say that some autistic individuals find it difficult to understand things from others perspectives but they do have very real and reactionary feelings... even if they do not completely understand them (most are very capable of it). Also some autistic persons are empaths. I don't think attachment is so much of a problem, i have seen dozens and dozens of autistic children and adults all with very firm attachments. Change however and possibly new attachment they (generally) can have difficulty with.

    It is common as i mentioned before hand for autistic individuals to have larger than usual eyes... unsure of the mouth...

    My daughters eyes...
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  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sorry I missed this earlier.

    I honestly don't know.

    But in my time as a parent, none of my kids -- despite being pissed off at us to the point of trying to run away from home -- never took knives from the drawer, never killed animals, never physically abused each other repeatedly in traumatic ways (although there were a few heated moments of scuffle). Nor did I talk to any other parents with kids who did these things, regardless of how much the child felt they hated the parent.

    In the few cases I'm personally acquainted with, the risk of permanent physical harm ran very high and wasn't just a bluff per se. Yes, there was likely an element of control to it as well, as part of attention-seeking, but this isn't a typical way in which children seek attention... there are many more ways a six-year-old can get attention.

    Well there was a lot of mention of her physically abusing her brother and causing him much pain. There was also the basement incident where she aparently repeatedly hit his head on the concrete... i think it said he was bleeding and had to go to the hospital... not entirely sure.

    I believe everytime she hurt anyone she was reinacting herself being hurt... reliving the trauma. I have seen this happen irl... becomming stuck in the reinactment and loosing control.

    Obviously i do not advocate this, it's terribly dangerous and her poor brother. There should be a way of her letting this go without harming others as fia?someone? said earlier. If it could be reinacted in a safe way and the ending could be measured and someone could explain to her what is happening and talk through the process... i'm not an expert but it feels like the right direction.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Well there was a lot of mention of her physically abusing her brother and causing him much pain. There was also the basement incident where she aparently repeatedly hit his head on the concrete... i think it said he was bleeding and had to go to the hospital... not entirely sure.

    I believe everytime she hurt anyone she was reinacting herself being hurt... reliving the trauma. I have seen this happen irl... becomming stuck in the reinactment and loosing control.

    Obviously i do not advocate this, it's terribly dangerous and her poor brother. There should be a way of her letting this go without harming others as fia?someone? said earlier. If it could be reinacted in a safe way and the ending could be measured and someone could explain to her what is happening and talk through the process... i'm not an expert but it feels like the right direction.
    I'm not sure this is anything different than what I said. Basically, her behavior is anything but normal. I don't think she's necessarily bluffing for attention. More chance she is reliving trauma (just as she was masturbating until she bled). She definitely needed a controlled environment with some amount of structure that she could trust, and where she won't get hurt or hurt others in the process of releasing the pain.

    it's also complicated in the fact that she's a child, and children normally do some level of attention-seeking, and this could be folded into it to make things even worse. It's not wrong for a child to enjoy being taking seriously and given attention; it gets complicated in teasing out ultimate motivation since there are likely multiple things involved in her psyche at once.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Thank you for being so keenly observant. That's why her moral confusion as an adult seems bizarre and absurd to me, because she's clearly a very articulate and bright individual.

    That makes her all the more dangerous, and all the more likely to learn how to game people.
    I'm not doubting that she is sincerely engaged with the process just that I know a lot of kids who've suffered that kind of abuse or different and less severe in some ways that are not verbal, some are withdrawn into private worlds and dont speak, but age and stage of development alone might make a kid unlikely to sit and engage in talk therapy.

    There's cultural factors too though I guess, I do a lot of talk therapy driving in a car because the kids I've worked with dont handle sitting in place and "eye balling" well, then again there's some therapists who would suggest that "eye balling" is necessary and even of therapeutic value.

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