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  1. #101
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    When I was in high school, I had a few unsettling experiences about wanting to hurt my father. He was rather a bully, would talk over me literally all the time instead of listening to me, ruined pretty any family holidays, and was easier to just avoid than try to relate to. He was so hard to deal with, it was difficult to have any kind of conversation with him without it esalating quickly into a screaming match or a, "Go outside / hide in your room to get away" debacle. Outside the house, he was respected in a certain circle of his professional peers, and they only saw the good things about him without understanding what it was like to live with an alcoholic narcissist, where he literally trampled everyone's boundaries day in and day out (if he was present at all). This was high school, mind you -- not a young child -- but inside I think I had a potential for a lot of anger because of the situation. One night he was sleeping, drunk, in the living room chair; I was standing in the kitchen and literally felt a physical compulsion to take one of the knives and stab him to death, over and over. it freaked me out, and I left the room in order to get away from the source of temptation.

    I don't think I would have had such a strong urge, if I had had a viable outlet for my anger toward him, but I had nothing -- no voice, no way to negotiate, no one who understood or would believe what I had to say. I interpreted it as me defending myself (proactively, while he was vulnerable) and venting all of that bile out of myself. Normally I stuffed all my anger so I wasn't even aware it existed (that was my coping mechanism), until it would come out in the dark and in moments where it made sense.

    So I think you have something here. I don't considering myself a psychopath and typically such an act would be unthinkable for me, but the lack of outlet for dealing with him... well, it's like when you don't have anything else, you're reduced to primal "fight or flight" rage. I can't imagine how worse it is when you're a young child, so you don't have the life experience to really frame everything, nor the words to articulate everything, and you're still physically, mentally, and emotionally vulnerable to your abusers.
    I think those kinds of feelings come up when people feel backed into a corner with no way out of a situation. It is important that you mentioned that outsiders would have no idea. That is more common than people think.

    I could share a variety of anecdotes about people I know who have had to suppress rage from being violated, but I'm just not up to it right now.

    Also @zago I read in your comments a sense that socio/psychopathy are an authentic state when you compared these to lions. Realize that those conditions result from parents leaving their infant to scream alone in a crib, from parents treating the child with complete dismissal, disrespect, and harm. Lions do not treat their cubs in such a manner. Just consider that early childhood harm leaves an individual in a state of complete internal powerlessness and rage. This is not the empowerment of an instinctual predator. It is a coping mechanism that overcompensates for vulnerability. Consider the internal state of someone hard-wired to feel absolute neglect and abuse vs. the internal state of a a powerful, instinctual predator. I suggest these two internal states are more different than you are assuming. Edit: Actually the equivalent condition in lions might be when you see one abused and filled with reactive rage at a zoo or carnival.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  2. #102
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I see. "She smiled like people I've assumed were ESFJs, and it fit what other gossip I read in the thread."

    Because, honestly, that's what's been going on here.
    Lots of speculation, not yet a lot of confirmation.
    Well it's not like it really matters what type she is, that's just my opinion. And most people type people by much less than that. No one can really know, anyway. What kind of confirmation are you looking for? I'm not assuming anything about her character, only speculating like you say, but what else can we do? Maybe she's a really great person. Who knows.

    I think it's pretty clear she's an Fe user because they tend to take their ethics and values from external sources, which she does. Fe users I have read tend to smile in ways which engage the mouth but not the eyes. I don't know if that's true, but they would be more likely to smile to be polite and socially acceptable without worrying if it's genuine or not, leading some people to say their smiles are fake. She seems like a J because the highly structured environment was a good fit for her personality and made her feel comfortable. SJ's tend to be traditional, so a conservative sort of religion would probably be comfortable as well. They tend to respect authority and hierarchy, which she does.

    Is this bad reasoning? Is it any worse than typing Kesha as ESFP just because her music has sensing themes, or typing me INFP because I have a fairy in my avatar? I don't advocate this obviously, but I think I have enough evidence to make a tentative guess about her personality type with a reasonable probability of it being right.

  3. #103
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well it's not like it really matters what type she is, that's just my opinion. And most people type people by much less than that. No one can really know, anyway. What kind of confirmation are you looking for? I'm not assuming anything about her character, only speculating like you say, but what else can we do? Maybe she's a really great person. Who knows.

    I think it's pretty clear she's an Fe user because they tend to take their ethics and values from external sources, which she does. Fe users I have read tend to smile in ways which engage the mouth but not the eyes. I don't know if that's true, but they would be more likely to smile to be polite and socially acceptable without worrying if it's genuine or not, leading some people to say their smiles are fake. She seems like a J because the highly structured environment was a good fit for her personality and made her feel comfortable.

    Is this bad reasoning? Is it any worse than typing Kesha as ESFP just because her music has sensing themes, or typing me INFP because I have a fairy in my avatar? I don't advocate this obviously, but I think I have enough evidence to make a tentative guess about her personality type with a reasonable probability of it being right.
    let's just agree that the haphazardness of it as a modus operandi is not indicative of T-style analytics, so at least that question is resolved.

    Aside from that, my simple point is that a lot of judgments are being floated around here that people wouldn't appreciate or think fair if they were the object of the scrutiny. That's all. i think Fia has done a great job in trying to politely keep things on target.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #104
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    let's just agree that the haphazardness of it as a modus operandi is not indicative of T-style analytics, so at least that question is resolved.
    Haphazardness hadn't really jumped out at me, but I can see it if it's true that she is lumping Edgar Allen Poe in with sociopaths. In any case, the ethics she embraces I don't think are genuinely hers; they came from external sources and she is internalizing and embracing them. It seems to me like she doesn't have a well developed sense of right and wrong because she didn't start out with any sense of it, so she is learning about it from society. There isn't really anything wrong with that, in my opinion. That's what a lot of people do; they don't think for themselves and just adhere to an authority whether it be religion or a political party. In her case though, it's not as much that she doesn't think for herself as that she started out from a disadvantaged state and so has more trouble than most people with comprehending things internally. So it's a smart decision for her. I don't know of course; maybe she really did develop empathy to the point where she wholeheartedly believes in these things and does what she does out of love. It just seems a little improbable that a sociopath could evolve that far. But no, although I think she is intelligent and probably has good reasoning capabilities in general, T-style analytics do not appear to be prominent.

  5. #105
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It just seems a little improbable that a sociopath could evolve that far. But no, although I think she is intelligent and probably has good reasoning capabilities in general, T-style analytics do not appear to be prominent.
    I wasn't talking about her.

    let's move on, thanks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #106
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I wasn't talking about her.

    let's move on, thanks.
    Ok, I think I know what you mean.

    Well, I'm not being judgmental about any of this. And what is this central idea we're supposed to be on target with? Sorry, but I thought we were just posting our thoughts about it in whatever way they related. I'm trying to figure out her psychology, just like everyone else. I thought what I said was useful.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I know she talks about killing her brother and adoptive parents, but for some reason I don't believe she was really going to do it. I mean, if she wanted them dead she would have really tried to do something already, especially if she had gotten hold of the knives. It could be that 'being bad' got her attention, so she kept at it. Talking about killing people got responses out of the adults, and sometimes kids in unstructured lives would do things like this to challenge the authority and test their own powers.
    Sorry I missed this earlier.

    I honestly don't know.

    But in my time as a parent, none of my kids -- despite being pissed off at us to the point of trying to run away from home -- never took knives from the drawer, never killed animals, never physically abused each other repeatedly in traumatic ways (although there were a few heated moments of scuffle). Nor did I talk to any other parents with kids who did these things, regardless of how much the child felt they hated the parent.

    In the few cases I'm personally acquainted with, the risk of permanent physical harm ran very high and wasn't just a bluff per se. Yes, there was likely an element of control to it as well, as part of attention-seeking, but this isn't a typical way in which children seek attention... there are many more ways a six-year-old can get attention.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #108
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Also @zago I read in your comments a sense that socio/psychopathy are an authentic state when you compared these to lions. Realize that those conditions result from parents leaving their infant to scream alone in a crib, from parents treating the child with complete dismissal, disrespect, and harm. Lions do not treat their cubs in such a manner. Just consider that early childhood harm leaves an individual in a state of complete internal powerlessness and rage. This is not the empowerment of an instinctual predator. It is a coping mechanism that overcompensates for vulnerability. Consider the internal state of someone hard-wired to feel absolute neglect and abuse vs. the internal state of a a powerful, instinctual predator. I suggest these two internal states are more different than you are assuming. Edit: Actually the equivalent condition in lions might be when you see one abused and filled with reactive rage at a zoo or carnival.
    Yeah, that's a good point; a well adjusted lion will be different from a maladjusted human, and humans are not carnivores, so our instincts even when we kill other beings will be different. But it was an interesting comparison. The mentality may have some internal similarities.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    You cannot read a bio at a distance, see that the person is not incarcerated, and then determine that they are psychologically healthy and functioning in society. You have to know them personally and witness first-hand the destruction of ruined lives they leave in their paths. This can include psychological and physical harm and even murders that cannot be identified or defended against.
    I agree with this completely.

    I was reading once about sociopaths in the military, how well they do in the beginning, because their seratonin is unnaturally high they are eerily calm in stressful situations, making them seem like perfect soldiers who will never get PTSD.

    Problem being that they can't keep up the facade forever, even in the military (perhaps surprising to some) and get caught doing heinous things.

    Psychopaths in particular have actual neurological issues, it isn't just a matter of being abused.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    The whole documentary seems off when you re-watch it. It's like she was trained to answer in a specific way... she has feelers out to see if she is doing a good job. She seems terribly afraid too, constantly checking for approval before continuing. Even at one point the male therapist corrects her... when she talks about the birds being dead he says "mom told me that you killed them, did you squeeze them?" or somesuch then she says she did... and he says "it's ok it's hard to remember" like he's coaching and reassuring her it's fixed.

    What i see is possibly quite different to you (and others) i'm sure.

    I see a terribly abused child abusing others to stop the hurt within and then getting put into a system when she is further abused. And it would not be the first time, systematic abuse is rife in areas of the already abused, the mentally ill, aged etc... all who are less able to take care of themselves.
    Weather or not she is a sociopath/psychopath i'm not convinced.

    It actually reminds me of a child in a book i read, a true story concerning a child put in a special education class who was torturing animals...and generally wild and unteachable. This child, with help, did seem to adapt (somewhat) but i suppose who really knows.
    I am glad you have such compassion for her (not being sarcastic, I am utterly disgusted by child molesters) ...but the problematic situation here is that she may also have hereditary issues i.e. tendency toward psychopathy, which needs a "perfect storm" of heredity or congenital neurological issues and abuse to evolve. I'm not sure that all small children who are sexually abused start killing small animals and saying they want to kill their family members.

    As much as I'm horrified by what happened to her, I don't want her hurting other people.

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