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  1. #91
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I wonder that too and why she was given a male therapist after being molested as a baby.
    The whole documentary seems off when you re-watch it. It's like she was trained to answer in a specific way... she has feelers out to see if she is doing a good job. She seems terribly afraid too, constantly checking for approval before continuing. Even at one point the male therapist corrects her... when she talks about the birds being dead he says "mom told me that you killed them, did you squeeze them?" or somesuch then she says she did... and he says "it's ok it's hard to remember" like he's coaching and reassuring her it's fixed.

    What i see is possibly quite different to you (and others) i'm sure.

    I see a terribly abused child abusing others to stop the hurt within and then getting put into a system when she is further abused. And it would not be the first time, systematic abuse is rife in areas of the already abused, the mentally ill, aged etc... all who are less able to take care of themselves.
    Weather or not she is a sociopath/psychopath i'm not convinced.

    It actually reminds me of a child in a book i read, a true story concerning a child put in a special education class who was torturing animals...and generally wild and unteachable. This child, with help, did seem to adapt (somewhat) but i suppose who really knows.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  2. #92
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Does anyone know what happened to her brother?

    One other observation I just remembered from the video is that when she talked about stabbing her family with the knives, she wanted to do it at night so they could feel it, but not see her. The image she drew of her molestation had her violator behind her where she could not see him.

    She also spoke many times of wanting her brother and parents dead, but when asked if the baby birds were dead, she said that when her parents saw them, they said the birds were dead, and therefore they were. She seemed unable to identify on her own judgment if they were dead. Children have trouble understanding death at that stage of life, so I found that interesting.

    The attachment therapy that they showed did seem strange to me as well. I will have to study it a bit more before having a conclusion. Individuals who have been violated need to have an avenue to express their rage. They need a process to get it out of their system without hurting others. They also need to experience healthy feelings of empowerment. What they do when reenacting the harm on others to regain control is in some ways the right idea, but just misdirected.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #93
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    After reading all the updates on the thread, there is one assumption I would like to point out as inaccurate. A socio/psychopath is not necessarily someone who blatantly murders people and ends up in prison. There are high-functioning individuals with the disorder who express their need to harm and exert control in ways that are acceptable in society, and/or in ways they can get away with in society. Such individuals will seek out the vulnerable who are unable to mount a defense. The sociopaths that fill our prisons tend to be lower on the socio-economic ladder and so are not likely to benefit as much from its laws.

    There are a number of professions that would be especially attractive to individuals with these disorders including medicine, behavioral sciences, business, performing arts, politics, etc. Professions in which competitive and ruthless behaviors are accepted, ones in which the individual can make life-and-death decisions, and those that control the emotional and psychological responses of crowds of people would be especially attractive. Just because someone isn't in prison does not mean that they are not causing tremendous harm to other people. They just figure out who they can get away with harming and stick to focusing their rage on those people.

    You cannot read a bio at a distance, see that the person is not incarcerated, and then determine that they are psychologically healthy and functioning in society. You have to know them personally and witness first-hand the destruction of ruined lives they leave in their paths. This can include psychological and physical harm and even murders that cannot be identified or defended against.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #94
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Does anyone know what happened to her brother?
    No, I'm not sure. He was younger; he was neglected for the early months of his life, but I'm not sure if he was directly abused like she was.

    There was a comment on one of the blogs, from a reader who said, "The update of Beth's story explains that after Beth stayed with Nancy Thomas, she returned home for a visit. Her did not return her to Nancy Thomas but instead placed her with an aunt while waiting for a facility to open that would care for her. She was placed in the facility and the parents eventually chose to legally abandoned her. That's when Nancy Thomas found her again and adopted her. My question is what happened when Beth returned home? Why did the parents not allow her to go back to stay with Nancy Thomas? Why did they finally decide to legally abandon her? In the documentary she seems to have made serious progress by the end. I'm wondering if she regressed once she went back home. The adoptive parents seem very kind and caring and Nancy Thomas praises them highly in the documentary. Also, what happened to Beth's brother? Did he stay in the adoptive home? I wonder if Beth has contact with the adoptive parents now and/or her brother? She is a nurse but also lectures across the country with Nancy Thomas. I wonder if anyone has asked these questions of her, I haven't found any information after extensive Google research."

    But that doesn't reveal much more than we already know.


    One other observation I just remembered from the video is that when she talked about stabbing her family with the knives, she wanted to do it at night so they could feel it, but not see her. The image she drew of her molestation had her violator behind her where she could not see him.
    Good observation.

    She also spoke many times of wanting her brother and parents dead, but when asked if the baby birds were dead, she said that when her parents saw them, they said the birds were dead, and therefore they were. She seemed unable to identify on her own judgment if they were dead. Children have trouble understanding death at that stage of life, so I found that interesting.
    I noticed that too. She also thought the baby birds could run away and were hard to catch, despite the psychologist's questions. I wasn't sure how to interpret it. Was she confused about death? Was she embarrassed on some level? Was she avoiding guilt? I don't know. She was so matter of fact, it was hard to read anything underneath.

    The attachment therapy that they showed did seem strange to me as well. I will have to study it a bit more before having a conclusion. Individuals who have been violated need to have an avenue to express their rage. They need a process to get it out of their system without hurting others. They also need to experience healthy feelings of empowerment. What they do when reenacting the harm on others to regain control is in some ways the right idea, but just misdirected.
    When I was in high school, I had a few unsettling experiences about wanting to hurt my father. He was rather a bully, would talk over me literally all the time instead of listening to me, ruined pretty any family holidays, and was easier to just avoid than try to relate to. He was so hard to deal with, it was difficult to have any kind of conversation with him without it esalating quickly into a screaming match or a, "Go outside / hide in your room to get away" debacle. Outside the house, he was respected in a certain circle of his professional peers, and they only saw the good things about him without understanding what it was like to live with an alcoholic narcissist, where he literally trampled everyone's boundaries day in and day out (if he was present at all). This was high school, mind you -- not a young child -- but inside I think I had a potential for a lot of anger because of the situation. One night he was sleeping, drunk, in the living room chair; I was standing in the kitchen and literally felt a physical compulsion to take one of the knives and stab him to death, over and over. it freaked me out, and I left the room in order to get away from the source of temptation.

    I don't think I would have had such a strong urge, if I had had a viable outlet for my anger toward him, but I had nothing -- no voice, no way to negotiate, no one who understood or would believe what I had to say. I interpreted it as me defending myself (proactively, while he was vulnerable) and venting all of that bile out of myself. Normally I stuffed all my anger so I wasn't even aware it existed (that was my coping mechanism), until it would come out in the dark and in moments where it made sense.

    So I think you have something here. I don't considering myself a psychopath and typically such an act would be unthinkable for me, but the lack of outlet for dealing with him... well, it's like when you don't have anything else, you're reduced to primal "fight or flight" rage. I can't imagine how worse it is when you're a young child, so you don't have the life experience to really frame everything, nor the words to articulate everything, and you're still physically, mentally, and emotionally vulnerable to your abusers.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #95
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hooray, now from her mere picture we've figured out she's (1) an ESFJ and (2) the spawn of Satan's seed.

    Anyone want to volunteer the third side of this sordid triangle?
    Well, I definitely don't think the second is true; I don't even know if she is a sociopath; I just think it's likely she is at a low stage of moral development (though higher than where she started). And I was typing her by everything I know about her, not just the picture. Mostly by how well she responded to the treatment and how she internalized her mother's values.

  6. #96
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well, I definitely don't think the second is true; I don't even know if she is a sociopath; I just think it's likely she is at a low stage of moral development (though higher than where she started). And I was typing her by everything I know about her, not just the picture. Mostly by how well she responded to the treatment and how she internalized her mother's values.
    I'll just quote your prior post I was responding to:
    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I also think she seems like an ESFJ. That was my impression of her adult picture.
    ------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    She must be a Republican.
    ESFJ, Spawn of Satan, and a black Republican.

    Well, I think that's a wrap, peeps! Ciao!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #97
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    I found this article which seems relevant, going over more of the same but maybe more explanatory, detailed. In it Beth is thought to be undiagnosed with sociopathy/paychopathy...

    "Reactive Attachment Disorder is characterized by markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate ways of relating socially. It can take the form of a persistent failure to initiate or respond to social interactions in an appropriate way—known as the “inhibited” form—or can present itself as indiscriminate sociability, such as excessive familiarity with strangers—known as the “disinhibited form“. Beth’s condition involved a complete inability to bond with any human being and a complete lack of empathy. This is also known as sociopathy or psychopathy although those terms are not used about children under the age of 18."



    http://jl10ll.wordpress.com/tag/rage/


    EDit: Also the man interviewing Beth was a Dr.Magid. Now deceased. Reading his Alumni biog it's (unrealted...ish) interesting to read that his mother was a wasp and his father was named Louise!

    http://www.iowalum.com/voyagers/scholarship_bio.cfm
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #98
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    The whole documentary seems off when you re-watch it. It's like she was trained to answer in a specific way... she has feelers out to see if she is doing a good job. She seems terribly afraid too, constantly checking for approval before continuing. Even at one point the male therapist corrects her... when she talks about the birds being dead he says "mom told me that you killed them, did you squeeze them?" or somesuch then she says she did... and he says "it's ok it's hard to remember" like he's coaching and reassuring her it's fixed.

    What i see is possibly quite different to you (and others) i'm sure.
    My feelings too! I felt like the interviewer was really leading the conversation to the direction that he wanted it to go -- trying to make her sound more 'messed up' than she really is.

    I know she talks about killing her brother and adoptive parents, but for some reason I don't believe she was really going to do it. I mean, if she wanted them dead she would have really tried to do something already, especially if she had gotten hold of the knives. It could be that 'being bad' got her attention, so she kept at it. Talking about killing people got responses out of the adults, and sometimes kids in unstructured lives would do things like this to challenge the authority and test their own powers.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  9. #99
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll just quote your prior post I was responding to:
    Well yeah, but everything I know about her was in my mind when I was looking at the picture. The smile looked like those I'd seen on people I suspected were ESFJ's, so I thought about it, and it fit given everything else. That's kind of how it works.

    Is there some problem with typing her and thinking there's something significant in the fact that she appears to be conservative?

  10. #100
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well yeah, but everything I know about her was in my mind when I was looking at the picture. The smile looked like those I'd seen on people I suspected were ESFJ's, so I thought about it, and it fit given everything else. That's kind of how it works.
    I see. "She smiled like people I've assumed were ESFJs, and it fit what other gossip I read in the thread."

    Because, honestly, that's what's been going on here.
    Lots of speculation, not yet a lot of confirmation.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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