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  1. #11
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    21%, you're not alone. I typically get EII (INFj). Sometimes I get IEI (INFp). But most times I get EII.
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    “Thoughts are the shadows of our feelings -- always darker, emptier and simpler.”
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  2. #12
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I've been trying to understand Socionics. I just took a test on sociotypes.com and came out EII (INFj). I know very little about Socionics but I do know that the functions are defined differently from MBTI functions, and that INFJs are often Socionics IEI (INFp).

    I've read the descriptions of the two types and I identify a little bit more with EII (INFj) than IEI (INFp). I'm just wondering if this is common?

    The main problem I have with socionics is perhaps that I just can't identify with any of the descriptions of any of the functions and types. To me, it lacks the personal, spiritual feel of MBTI and I found the descriptions awfully dry. I know this is all my fault, but I'd really like to understand it a bit better, so maybe I'm not approaching this correctly.

    Any pointers? Thanks!
    when i was doing my research this last year, it seemed quite clear to me that you just switch j/p for introverts. they just code the type differently (which jung didn't include, because he only described the processes of judgment and perception, not choosing to identify individuals as judgers or perceivers but instead describing individuation in terms of functions that didn't necessarily have a fully explicit narrative to accompany them). i felt as if the function descriptions were of the same functions. they speak to the same patterns that i see, at least, and provide another conceptual reference point (if not a fully concrete, foundational, anchoring one--and, as such, can't be fundamentalized too much because they're just text about text, and require so many layers of interpretation mediating and preventing us from directly observing them, even if those descriptions treat the functions as if they were concrete objects).

    furthermore, i do agree that it lacks the optimism of MBTI. but i find that grounding and helpful too, in its own way. it's more concrete. like imagining the functions as objects that interact in real world spaces, rather than as descriptions of a kind of abstract, intellectualized articulation of experience. with socionics, i feel like i see myself through a sensing perspective and am the better for it. it feels like a statistical model of jungian psychology focusing less on the conditions than on the consequences.

    i feel like it's just going in the opposite direction of mbti. from a kind of soviet, statistical social engineering software to a kind of self-driven, spiritual evolution process. ours has got more of the good side of that old american individualism in its ring, originating from nf types as it were, but when it's all said and done corporate hiring practices are what pays the bills for mbti tm inc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Don't go by descriptions, study the IMs and Model A.
    agreed. at least the function descriptions are better building blocks, and the systematization provides a grammar for contextualizing the intent of those building blocks in the construction process. otherwise, all the levels of organization collapse, and the sense of what makes an object an object loses coherency because the background and foreground get smushed together. it's like seeing the world with one eye rather than with two, and without having learned the art of depth perception first.

  3. #13
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    I've read a good bit about Socionics, and honestly I don't fit definitively into either the INFj or INFp type. I am in between them for the most part, and very slightly identify more with INFj, not just based on type descriptions but on the functions as well. I fit the MBTI INFJ type far more obviously.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    furthermore, i do agree that it lacks the optimism of MBTI. but i find that grounding and helpful too, in its own way. it's more concrete. like imagining the functions as objects that interact in real world spaces, rather than as descriptions of a kind of abstract, intellectualized articulation of experience. with socionics, i feel like i see myself through a sensing perspective and am the better for it. it feels like a statistical model of jungian psychology focusing less on the conditions than on the consequences.
    interesting: my problem with MBTI is very much with the tone of masturbatory-complementary & pseudo-spiritual optimism.

    a lot of what i am trying to do with understanding it better and re-describing it (to myself and others) is not only clearer understanding of what it is, but also in reaching under to the underlining mechanics, building models not from the metaphors but from the commonalities people of various types exhibit.

    now you officially got me interested in socionics. any sources are welcome.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    I've been researching socionics heavily lately, and it is thanks to socionics that I finally figured out my true Jungian type as well: Ni dominant with Te auxiliary. Socionics even explains why I, and everyone else who also knew me and understood my cognition was confused; I'm a contact subtype, so specifically ILI-Te. It means I'll Te a lot.

    It's almost stupid going back reading my posts when I typed as an INTP/INFP now, because the Ni perspective where I ultimately come from is so obvious. Yet I, and no one else, saw it, until recently, when I really began considering whether my aversion to Fe was in fact an expression of Fe PoLR rather than ignoring. If I simply ignore Fe, why is it always causing me so much pain? Why do I always take offense when people Fe on me? Expect me to adhere to an Fe perspective and so on? Why do I want to hate on Fe and resist Fe so badly but yet I find myself carried away with no true abiltiy to resist and being subsumed into their Fe logic and activities and I find myself lost, sucked up and dried out and tossed away to rot in the gutter, feeling nothing but emotional emptiness inside?

    There was also the part where I started to become frustrated, angry even, at Te and Fi as function perspectives in my mind. They did not yield the answers I sought about myself. No, why were all the functions so godamn useless with intuition the only exception that still made sense to me? That if I must choose, I'd get rid of everything but intuition?

    Another aspect of socionics that helped me a lot was Gulenko's article of cognitive styles. I read it again and again, and it became obvious over time that the cognition that made the most sense was dialectial-algorithmic. Only ILIs, SEIs, EIEs and LSEs utilize DA cognition, and I know I'm no SEI because I'm a clear intuitive, and I know I'm not an EIE because I don't Fe, and I know I'm not an LSE because I don't Si. So what's left is gamma ILI.

    Honestly, I'm still a little confused after brainwashing myself that I'm an NF for such a long time, probably a confusion caused by my enneagram 4 fix and wing, but inferior Se makes so much sense. Everything makes so much sense, heh.

    @_eric_ I would look into EIE for you, specifically the EIE-Ni subtype. Just a hunch. Delta you are not, gamma is possible but I think you are right to identify with Fe rather than Te.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    MBTI ENTP isn't LIE/ENTj. Who the hell told you that. Only the introverts are reversed.

    Anyway, to add my piece here, I'm definitely SEE-Fi in Socionics, it was either that or ENFj (no) and Gamma quadra. I am definitely not Socionics ISFj (also Gamma quadra, and Socionics Fi/Se). I know a Socionics ISFj and we were actually very compatible... in our way... but I am not like him.

    However, on MBTI style tests, I almost always get INFP, and think I generally have too much Ni to be a Jungian ESFP, though I do relate to the ES(F)-Cultural Realist neurotic description.

    ISFP seems most likely for me outside of Socionics.

    I think that's why I'm a SEE-Fi and not a SEE-Se. That makes a difference, I think.
    What about ESI-Se?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  7. #17
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    @_eric_ I would look into EIE for you, specifically the EIE-Ni subtype. Just a hunch. Delta you are not, gamma is possible but I think you are right to identify with Fe rather than Te.
    I don't know about that, especially since I am one of the most introverted people I know. (Compared to the people I know in person, anyways.)

    Here is Wikisocion's description. I'll bold the parts that are like me. Most of the rest is pretty much completely the opposite of how I am.

    Ego Block

    1. Extraverted Ethics
    EIEs are naturally animate and passionate and are skilled at generating liveliness and excitement. They believe that people need to be emotionally involved in life, not distant or indifferent to the important things that are happening. EIEs often hold strong views about governance and social custom, though their beliefs stem from the interests of their close emotional relationships. EIEs like to involve people in interaction and create groups based around a shared experience. They tend to try to continually broaden these groups and engage people who seem to be on the sidelines. The individuals who the EIE is spending time with are far more important to the EIE than the event that is actually taking place. EIEs like to make their friends laugh, and employ an over-the-top style of humor. Often the joke is on the EIE, whether or not they know it.

    EIEs are one of the most insightful types about the minds and inner workings of people, and as a result are likely to be skilled persuaders. Their sensitivity to the emotional flow around them allows them a relative sense of emotional control of a situation, and they have an uncanny ability to convince others, even without the use of logic. (Unsure about this, I do use logic a lot in persuasion, but not exclusively, as I try to keep it pretty balanced.) EIEs generally don't use their persuasion tactics for manipulative gain over others (as much of their sense of self-worth comes from impacting people positively), but they can use these tactics negatively in cases where they cannot win approval of their arguments. In many situations, nevertheless, EIEs value equality among social standards and do not mind taking the back seat if others wish to take the lead. (Back seat is my default position to begin with lol. I only take the lead if it is absolutely necessary.) EIEs love their friends, and they will do anything to keep them. Time spent alone for the EIE is often spent thinking about how to better interact with close relationships, even when time spent in those relationships is not particularly pleasing. Even when the other individual is hostile, if the EIE judges them to be a friend they will act in a caring fashion and show affection to the other.

    2. Introverted Intuition
    EIEs have a keen sense of the significance of the moment, life's flow of events, and the past and future evolution of things. The excitement they stimulate generally has to do with insensible things that can only be perceived over time, rather than with experiences that are captured in a specific moment. For example, they love to instill confidence in people by taking great detail to their problems and envisioning ways of handling them. EIEs are quite able to "paint pictures with words", so to speak. They enjoy having objects around them that provide a connection to the past, such as ancient trinkets or souvenirs, old-fashioned things, and items from another time and place. They like to be aware of and talk about their place in history, as the EIE's concept of humanity itself is largely perceived through the sensation of trends over time. As a result, they like to imagine scenarios of different ways a situation can unfold with their imagination; such actions give them a sense of security about what is to come.

    EIEs are very open about their feelings of hesitation, apprehension, anticipation, and anxiety regarding events. Sometimes they are melodramatic about risks and dangers, but this helps them and those around them to be aware of and to prepare for possible negative turns of events. It disappoints the EIE greatly when advice given to another is rejected, but not much weighs a helpful EIE down more than to see people wasting their potential by dwelling in their past problems. They tend to believe that people, regardless of long-term psychological mistreatment, can improve their lives to some extent.

    EIEs reject the idea that life is just a sequence of ho-hum everyday events with no particular meaning. They see everything to having a grand or symbolic purpose that arouses the imagination and passions. For that matter, EIEs seek to define their unique purpose in life, and orient goals around the meaning they infer from their experiences across time. They constantly seek to improve the negative conditions surrounding them, and so tend to look for problems even when it isn't necessary.

    EIEs also frequently reflect on their dreams, making symbolizations of the events that occur in dreams and relating them to external reality. They enjoy contemplating on what their subconscious psyche is displaying to them.

    Super-Ego Block

    3. Extraverted Logic
    EIEs do not easily focus on the procedural aspects of things where their emotions and excitement have no place. They avoid administrative tasks whenever possible. Although they dislike routine work, they admire those who are able to maintain organization and efficiency in their lives, as long as those standards aren't imposed on themselves. They also enjoy an extent of logical debate about intellectual topics but hardly consider practicality when it comes to forming their own beliefs.

    Efficiency always takes the back seat when the feelings of others are involved. The EIE will often disregard how work is being done if friends are leading the effort. If an enemy is in charge the EIE will harass and defame the enemy if a procedure is not being done effectively. EIEs like to simply get their work done in a short amount time and get it out of the way, often without putting much of a focus on the quality of the work itself. As such they tend to dislike those who are overly 'work-oriented' and indifferent to the emotional aspect of things. However, EIEs appreciate someone who knows an abundance of information; one who can be depended on to correct problems and maximize the efficiency of work-related projects the EIE is involved in.

    EIEs attempt to make their emotive decisions correlate to rationality when taking action, as they want others to see the logic in the actions the EIE wants to take. However, when they themselves are confident in the importance of doing something, EIEs feel that logical explanations are only necessary for those who ask for them. Personal decisions are mainly made without even factoring in productivity or how beneficial they are, as EIEs tend to have a difficult time considering those factors.

    4. Introverted Sensing
    The EIE is more likely to measure the comfortableness of conversation than other more physiological signs. Still, they are quite attuned to the the physical sensations others are experiencing and use the information to raise and lower the emotional conditions that those individuals are experiencing. In any case however, EIEs are prone to making errors in daily routine. This can include having little or no idea of where they put an object, allowing neglected responsibilities to pile up, or failing to remember important tasks given to them; excessive procrastination is common in EIEs. The EIE has little respect for people who seem to be too concerned with their health and comfort and who avoid straining themselves. The EIE feels that people who focus too much on caring for themselves will have no time to achieve anything worthwhile.

    The EIE will feel empty and restless if he is in a situation where he is expected to just chill out and have a good time; he would feel that this undermines his devotion to realizing his abstract visions. He can only enjoy visceral contact with reality if it is accompanied by an active will to initiate such contact, to intentionally engage it. EIEs frequently reflect on experiences with others, both positive and negative, and are always bracing themselves for future problems (which mostly involve other people). This extensive planning of future engagements cause EIEs to often feel restless as they want to implement their goals quickly. In situations where they are forced to remain patient and idle, EIEs can dwell in their stress and neglect real problems.

    Super-Id Block

    5. Introverted Logic
    EIEs admire people whose thinking is clear-cut, unambiguous, and stalwart, who reduce the myriad of possibilities down to one single option. This is something they are almost completely unable to do on their own (they easily doubt their ability to choose right), but have a deep need for in other people.

    In conversation EIEs tend to go off on tangents when something is mentioned that triggers an emotional response, and they often need to be reminded of the subject matter or purpose of the discussion.

    EIEs love to hear about information that their friends know. Talking about academic subjects, music, and movies expands the horizons of the EIE and gives them direction. The EIE is happy to simply be a part of the discussion of various subjects, while providing emotional input himself. The information just gives them a new reason to see their friends, and more things to talk about with them.

    EIEs are happy to let someone else organize their schedule and keep track of their engagements and things to do.

    6. Extraverted Sensing
    EIEs struggle with focus and willpower and have a need for something or someone that will focus them consistently and prod them to act despite any feelings of apprehension and doubt. EIEs know that they often need to "just do it" and often look for something or someone that will provide the impetus and make them "do it." EIEs are drawn to people who exude determination and resolve. People who are certain of their views and cannot be swayed by external forces are especially attractive. Such people are, in a way, the opposite of themselves.

    EIEs can be brash and harshly critical during fits of passion, and they appreciate people who are not fazed by this, but calmly stand their ground. If such people are at times angry and forceful with them, they take this as a sign that the person cares enough to be emotionally involved in their lives. In conversation, EIEs have a tendency to impose their opinions on others in a forceful way, especially when challenged by a point of view that conflicts with theirs. They dislike giving in to others when they strongly believe in their own way of doing things, and can act smug and arrogant towards people who openly criticize their viewpoints.

    Id Block

    7. Introverted Ethics
    EIEs generally refuse to conform to standards of what is acceptable and nice to say. Instead, they try to express themselves spontaneously — sometimes harshly, sometimes sweetly or kindly — not because that is what other people expect of them, but because that is what they actually feel at the moment.

    EIEs understand interpersonal relationships and their own sentiments towards things and people, but they prefer to focus on the external side of these things (what happened, who said what and how they said it, etc.) and not dig around in people's minds or internal motives. They also dislike it when others express a negative evaluation of another; EIEs tend to view them as overly judgmental and closed-minded.

    EIEs are usually hesitant about deciding how somebody internally feels about them if they aren't receiving expression from the person. If contact dwindles between themselves and another, EIEs frequently doubt that their relation is positive; if the person matters enough to them, EIEs can become overly consumed in trying to "solve the problem", and as a result tend to be quite overbearing.

    8. Extraverted Intuition
    EIEs can generate random ideas or come up with lots of crazy alternatives for fun, but they prefer to focus on understanding the development of a particular situation and not be distracted with possibilities that are outside that situation. Too much idea generation and focus on all the possibilities open to them actually disorients them, as they are already plenty scattered enough.

    When experiencing deep stress resulting from a conflict, however, they become very doubtful about forecasting the likely unfolding of the conflict and start to use this function to imagine how events could happen. If resolution to the problem seems unlikely, or if nothing is being done to turn things around, EIEs turn to dark thoughts about what is likely to happen and become absorbed by the conflict (even if these negative thoughts are not very rational).
    I don't relate with the EIE Ni subtype very much.


    And now, I'll do the same thing with their EII description. The only major difference is that I do not have the Ti and Te deficiencies.

    1. Introverted Ethics
    EIIs are very attuned to the psychological atmosphere of interaction and to their own feelings towards people and things. They treasure deep feelings of attachment and strive to deepen emotional bonds between people and harmonize relationships. When those people that the EII is close to suffer emotionally, the EII will do everything in her power to raise the emotional condition in the individual, often at the EII's expense.

    EIIs are very capable of "sizing people up". They rely heavily on their instincts to understand the inner feelings of an individual. They are very empathetic people and find it very easy to feel with others. This makes them very sensitive to the moods of people, and they treat them the way they want to be treated, that is, with respect.


    2. Extraverted Intuition
    EIIs have a natural understanding of people's inner makeup and see what can be done with that makeup to bring them closer to ideals. EIIs have a very well-developed view of what people and relationships should be like and are able to help others reach those ideals.

    EIIs understand people very well. They often give good advice, and have a strong understanding of the inner workings of even the most complicated minds. They have well developed ideas concerning ideal emotional states for individuals, and always have advice as to how an individual can reach that ideal.

    One of the largest complaints of EIIs revolve around the idea of "wasted potential." A lot of their neuroses, and "drive," come from fears that they are not achieving the maximum possible ideal in a certain field or area of life. Unlike IEEs, though, EIIs consider "leveraging potential" more in terms of depth - mastery of one or several specific areas - rather than breadth.


    Super-Ego Block

    3. Introverted Logic
    EIIs are not easily able to abstract themselves from the human dimension and apply "cold" logic. When they try to do this, they easily become unsure if their reasoning is correct.

    EIIs feel that not everything can be classified under the system since everything has its unique individual attributes.

    4. Extraverted Sensing
    EIIs are typically negligent of their surroundings and have difficulty keeping track of objects or constantly monitoring things and people around them.
    They can be passive and self-absorbed, often preferring to wait for things to happen rather than make them happen. As such, they tend to have quite a number of lost opportunities. To a certain extent, EIIs can be oblivious to hints from someone who is romantically interested in them. Therefore, this gives the other party the wrong impression that they are not interested in them.


    Outsiders often think the EII is oblivious to reality because they will often neglect basic needs. Although it is by no means necessary, this may also manifest itself as a general rejection or aversion to violence or force as a means or way of life.

    Super-Id Block

    5. Extraverted Logic
    EIIs have a great admiration for people who are able to get things done neatly and efficiently in the outside world. They themselves consistently forget to consider whether their activities are actually achieving their intended goal, whether their time spent is bringing worthy proceeds, and whether their activities are organized in the most rational way. They subconsciously expect and appreciate it when others take interest in the effectiveness of their activities and helps to take an objective look at what they are doing.

    EIIs are usually very curious and thirsty for information. When they have an interest in a particular topic or subject, they will try their best to read anything and everything about it in order to gain a thorough understanding.

    They are willing to listen to anyone who is knowledgeable or has a brilliant idea to share regardless of whether that individual is an expert or authority in his/her field since they strongly believe that there are many perspectives in an issue.


    6. Introverted Sensing
    EIIs tend to build up stress related to their work-related activities and go overboard in their attempt to be exemplary at work and in all other areas of life. They need people and situations to help them relax and take it easy and forget about their idealism for a while to just enjoy the moment as it is.

    EIIs can be prone to laziness and always seek the most convenient way in doing things. Moreover, rather than prioritizing their tasks based on their level of urgency or/and importance, they prefer to complete the tasks based on their liking and at their own pace.

    When they are preoccupied with a hobby, they tend to lose track of time and can be late with their appointments with others. As a result, they don't really have good time management skills.


    Id Block

    7. Extraverted Ethics
    EIIs can become expressive and very lively in groups for brief periods of time, but they always gravitate to deep, focused communication between two people or a small, close-knit group. They tend to shun wildness and prefer serious, more sensitive communication.

    EIIs are usually very straightforward about their feelings in front of others; what you see from them is what you get. Even at a party where everyone is supposed to be happy, they still find it hard to conceal their true feelings when they are in a bad mood. This can create distaste among the rest who feel that the EII is not cooperating by contributing to the positive and boisterous mood. This tends to lead others who don't know the EII well to have a misconception that he/she is a grouchy person by nature.


    8. Introverted Intuition
    The individual is quite adept at following discussions on the developments of present trends into the future and at contributing to them on occasion if he feels so inclined, but he does not take that as seriously compared to investigating possibilities in the areas he is interested in at present. He usually dismisses supernatural claims as being silly, wishful thinking, unless they happen to be related to the very specific religion he feels inclined to believe in and which he may be inclined to make part of his leisure activities.

    The individual is also not naive to future happenings. He will often warn others of negative consequences. In this way, he uses his Ni to help the PoLR of his dual. However, unlike an EIE, he will not often
    take his own advice nor expect others to. His Se PoLR makes it impossible for him to demand that others heed his advice, and his Ne-ego makes him place more value in the possibility that he is wrong - and that things will play out differently - than in avoiding foreseeable disasters.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    What about ESI-Se?
    What you think I'm an ESI-Se instead of an SEE-Fi?

    I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    I don't know about that, especially since I am one of the most introverted people I know. (Compared to the people I know in person, anyways.)
    The EIE-Ni subtype is going to be very introverted. Also, I don't look at behavior as much as I'd look at your cognition. In terms of dichotomies, I do think your cognition is negativist rather than positivist, and seeing your other posts I do think you got Ni in the ego block. So that leaves us with ILI and EIE.

    Here is Wikisocion's description. I'll bold the parts that are like me. Most of the rest is pretty much completely the opposite of how I am.
    That's why you should study Model A, not read descriptions. Most descriptions of the types are terrible anyway.

    I don't relate with the EIE Ni subtype very much.
    I would look into the basic metabolism of how the functions and their elements operate first before I would plunge too much into subtype. You need to understand the fundamentals of how socionics works before you can understand how subtype works.

    And now, I'll do the same thing with their EII description. The only major difference is that I do not have the Ti and Te deficiencies.
    Then what is your thinking preference? If you don't feel it's located in super-id block, what about ego block? I do think you are Fe-Ti over Ti-Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    What you think I'm an ESI-Se instead of an SEE-Fi?

    I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean.
    Yes, I was considering ESI-Se being more likely for you than SEE-Fi. In conversation and in general, you seem to choose to engage the world with Se and Te, not Fi and Ni.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Yes, I was considering ESI-Se being more likely for you than SEE-Fi. In conversation and in general, you seem to choose to engage the world with Se and Te, not Fi and Ni.
    Interesting, because I have had a lot of people think I'm an N or one person even said he thought I should go ESI because I'm too Ni to be SEE.

    So you think that my thinking and analysis are more due to Te than Ni?

    EDIT: I'm reading ESI and it just reminds me so much of JTG, though he'd actually probably be the more withdrawn, pig-headed, internally exacting and mistrusting ESI-Fi.

    If he's an ESI-Fi I would definitely be the ESI-Se. I don't think we had relations of Identity, though, we had Mirror relations. That's why the concept of ENFP and ISTJ made sense, too, like turning two people inside out and having them relate to each other, yet not quite understanding why the other person choosing to come from the ass end first.

    SEE-Fi and ESI-Fi make more sense then.

    But please, explain to me why you think I fit that description, I'm open to hearing the possibility that I'm ESI-Se.

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