Are Women More "Irrational* Than Men?

[Z Buck McFate]

At least one neurologist and one neuroscientist might disagree with that statement.
No Reason Without Emotion?

Yes, thanks (I’ve actually got a copy of Descartes’ Error sitting on my end table in my to-read pile). I know the *science* to back up my claims is out there, but I’m not very skilled at detail recall or being able to find particular studies I very clearly remember reading. All I specifically remember is that scans have shown the amygdala fires off before anything else, and that the parts of the brain that make sense of things kick in after it.

I agree - I think J's in general have a harder time with this (with believing they are more baked-in rational, varying from J-type to J-type of course - won't derail further though).

Fascinating hypothesis. I’m trying to remember if you’ve ever said anything like this before.

[video=youtube;HNTxr2NJHa0]song that never ends[/video]

You are confusing emotions and values. These are the "subjective attachments" at the root of rational matters: our ideas of what is important and why. It is quite easy to recognize and set aside emotional input to the logical process, especially if one is more comfortable and skilled with assessing the objective data. This is similar to disregarding references written in a foreign language. Yes, you might miss some useful information, but careful analysis of the papers you can actually read should suffice for a practical decision. Attempting to decipher the papers in the other language might result in errors.

Of course, the pain-in-the-ass in me wants to point out that choosing the term ‘value’ over ‘emotion’ is a personal preference and isn’t really correcting what I said so much as changing the wording to make it more palatable for yourself- because in the studies I’ve read on this topic, more often than not, the word ‘emotion’ is used to convey ‘the affect which happens before the conscious logic, and which influences that logic’- but the non-pain-in-the-ass part of me that just wants everyone to get along is thinking “Sure, ‘value’ works too I guess.”

 

[Thalassa]

lol [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] just repped me that I basically copycatted her position here!

So, I will take another tangent, but have only NOW skimmed the thread, so if I am copying someone else here, rep me and chastise me accordingly.

There is a difference between being irrational and showing strong emotions. Just because you might not understand the reason behind someone else's show of strong emotion, does not mean there isn't a rational reason for that behaviour. I find people mix these two up - having a powerful emotional response or using emotion in an argument is not the same as being irrational.

eta: When [MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION] gets angry at someone for trolling her, it's a rational response - there's a clear reason and one could say it is perfectly logical.

Fi is a rational function and I think the primary difference between men and women is NOT that women are more irrational (no that is not my experience, having had men go off on me, or seen them fight with each other) ...but often that women are more comfortable expressing their feelings because they've been socialized that expressing feelings is okay and healthy, that repressing them makes you sick, even.

From what I've read, the male hormonal cycle actually cycles more rapidly than the female hormonal cycle. That means men are actually more likely to be moody in a more daily pattern, while women will sustain a certain hormonal state for a few days to a week or so, like 7-10 days in some cases.

Also, I've had guys meet me one time and want to run away with me, so not even on that front, no.

I've also been sharply aware of how irrational some men are about female sexuality, so no again there.

All in all, I think men are more likely to type themselves as Ts, but according to MBTI stats, T/F is split about 50/50 for men.

Fi and Fe are also rational functions, they just aren't logical like Te and Ti.

 

[Zarathustra]

I love how F-types always try to invalidate the possibility of T-based rationality, by immediately throwing themselves into full belief of anything that suggests there's an emotional component tovall of our cognition. That much is so obvious, it is remarkable people actually find it so groundbreaking. The much more interesting question is what happens later in higher order thinking that makes one more or less objective, more or less rational.

 

[Thalassa]

In fact, let's just clarify that the irrational functions are Se, Si, Ne, and Ni (and no not in any particular order, it's not that Ni is the most rational of the irrationals...it's just that Se is the most obvious because it "acts out"...all of those people who drive too fast, get arrested for petty misdemeanors, accidentally get caught having sex in public, or fight/argue on impulse? Probably due to a lot of Se, especially in youth, and people who carry this kind of impulsive self-defeating behavior into middle age probably aren't balancing their rational functions with their Se...I'm an Se type, and I know that it's the combo of Se and Fi that have made me so impulsively reaction, not just my F function, which actually usually tells me to stay away from the BAAAAAAD people).

Si is irrational in confusing the symbol with the object, so despite all of their sensibility and order, SJs may not "get in trouble" as much as Se types on the surface (unless they have underlying issues) ...Si doms can still be quite irrational, especially when Si is not balanced with other functions.

There's also nothing more rational about being an N. Ni doms, esp. INTJs I've noticed, can have wild and inappropriate theories about things (especially when they're conspiracy theories) and according to Socionics, NFJs are likely to hold on to ideologies to the point of it being beyond reason, having more to do with the vision than with the morality, even exhausting themselves or driving themselves mad (See: Hitler).

Also, I'm sure nobody has to tell you those Ne doms spitting out all of those theoretical possibilities and not deciding on any of them nor acting on them aren't being as rational as they could be.

What's going on here, I'm going to guess, is simply socialization of females to be more comfortable with displaying emotion (which has nothing do with Fi or Fe, but with socialization of girls and boys)...also culture. In some cultures men are much more jolly, hug each other, and think that not crying while in grief is the real weakness. Serbian men think you're a puss if you can't show emotion, but in the U.S. it's the opposite.

Hmmm...what else?

Oh, also Te doms opposing Fi in some cases, or Ti doms being annoyed by Fi, which is more of a function clash than a gender or biological sex clash.

 

[Zarathustra]

^ I think there is something to be said for rationality having to do with the development of as many functions as possible

 

[Zarathustra]

^ but also note that, in your post, there is not much talk about T functions being irrational

T functions, while not indicators of perfect rationality, are the functions closest to rationality

 

[Thalassa]

Guess who's not reading your posts or talking to you, troll?

 

[The Ü™]

I wonder how many women voted No...

 

[INTP]

this, but not just this. women are more driven by their emotions in general due to hormones and monthly changes in them , F type or not.

I think that irrational men are more likely to mask their irrationality behind a bogus wall of 'logic speak', due to what society has taught them.

also this, INTJs are often masters at this and doing that is highly irrational.. one of the over 9000 reasons why i consider them more irrational than ENFPs for example, who are generally seen as very irrational people, but thats just the surface, like the "rationality" of the INTJ is.

 

[Amargith]

Trust me, testosterone does a bigger number on your guys than estrogen does on us..ours just comes together in one little week. You guys are hormonal non-stop

Im still trying to understand the rationale of a guy talking to my chest while vehemently building a case that I just aint his type

 

[INTP]

Trust me, testosterone does a bigger number on your guys than estrogen does on us..ours just comes together in one little week. You guys are hormonal non-stop

Im still trying to understand the rationale of a guy talking to my chest while vehemently building a case that I just aint his type

how about crying at every fourth episode of greys anatomy ?

 

[Amargith]

how about crying at every fourth episode of greys anatomy ?

It is still less weird than talking to breasts, dude, sorry

 

[EJCC]

^ I think there is something to be said for rationality having to do with the development of as many functions as possible

This.

I think what's irrational, is denying your other functions even in the face of evidence that you need to embrace them in order to get through a situation. That includes Ti denying Fe, and Te denying Fi.

 

[INTP]

It is still less weird than talking to breasts, dude, sorry

breasts are yummy and thus looking at them gives pleasure, crying at tv makes zero sense

 

[Thalassa]

breasts are yummy and thus looking at them gives pleasure, crying at tv makes zero sense

Talking to women's breasts and trying to get them to take you seriously as being more "rational" is pretty irrational.

We could say that any number of things are rational, by what you're saying here. For example, screaming to get attention or crying to release toxins and feel better from the release are rational.

You do know that crying releases toxins, right?

I think I'm just going to go through this thread and decide who goes on ignore, forthwith.

 

[Amargith]

breasts are yummy and thus looking at them gives pleasure, crying at tv makes zero sense

...It kind of ruins the point you are trying to make about me not being your type though and giving me a 'rational' explanation for it

And fiction is meant to touch us where it hurts and where we love. It has been proven to increase empathy, imagination and teach us lessons that we can apply to our own lives. It is specifically engineered to be a tear-jerker, or a mood-lifter, or whatever that specific type of fiction is aiming at.

Now...that said, I can see how Greys anatomy would not be your cup of tea. Different triggers for different people

 

[Magic Poriferan]

This stereotype snowball fight certainly makes a case for an equal lack of rationality.

 

[Amargith]

This stereotype snowball fight certainly makes a case for an equal lack of rationality.

...it is a play fight, ffs.

 

[Thalassa]

also this, INTJs are often masters at this and doing that is highly irrational.. one of the over 9000 reasons why i consider them more irrational than ENFPs for example, who are generally seen as very irrational people, but thats just the surface, like the "rationality" of the INTJ is.

YES. And you're almost at the truth...and that is everyone can be irrational in their own way, it's just that we tend to believe our functional preferences are better or our rational functions are more rational than the ones that others prefer and they reject.

For example, an Fe type would probably think it's highly irrational of a person to try to get someone to agree with them after they've attacked them and hurt their feelings. What kind of person thinks it's "sensible" or "reasonable" to attack a person, then try to get them to agree with you?

I think this is why Fe types when healthy are known for their natural diplomacy. They know in order to get people to agree in most cases, they must word things politely and to cause the least offense possible.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

...it is a play fight, ffs.

It's not that you're fighting, it's the points you're making. And I know you're kidding, but you're kidding on the square.