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View Poll Results: Are women more irrational than men?

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  • Yes

    12 27.27%
  • No

    27 61.36%
  • Kinda-sorta

    5 11.36%
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  1. #171
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    We sure as hell can try to enjoy our lives.
    Well of course. It's just that there's more than way to go about it and some ways have a higher likelihood of success than others. The military, taken from a strictly rational perspective, is not an effective path to a happy life compared to other paths, especially when one has other options available.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    You brought that up. It was just something I was correcting.
    The stats are pretty crazy and kinda telling.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    Remember Nam? Seemed to do alright there.
    If you mean they weren't tried for their war crimes, then you'd be correct. If you mean none were committed, not so much. Also, a good chunk of those guys were drafted or believed they would be and enlisted preemptively. They did not fare well in public opinion and they were treated very badly, which is one reason you don't see the kinds of protests you with our current wars: we now see them as the victims they were. And emotionally, a lot of those guys are trainwrecks. Even the outwardly functional ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    I think pretty much anyone would agree on this.
    Uhhuh. But as long as young men keep falling for their BS, it's not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    for this specific sub-convo i think this is worth extending on:



    you framed it wrong - or rather - a young man going into the army doesn't really let himself consciously care for the most part about the chance of his own death - "we'll all die someday".
    That's not the only instance. It's why they do a lot of things: they think they can't die. It gets them killed a lot. A lot of them seem constitutionally incapable of being rational in the face of novel experiences and it leaves them vulnerable to those that would profit from their destruction, whether it be fast or slow. But they think they'll be the exception even though there isn't any logical reason for believing this.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That's not the only instance. It's why they do a lot of things: they think they can't die. It gets them killed a lot. A lot of them seem constitutionally incapable of being rational in the face of novel experiences and it leaves them vulnerable to those that would profit from their destruction, whether it be fast or slow. But they think they'll be the exception even though there isn't any logical reason for believing this.
    it's not that we don't think we can die - it's that we are somehow ok with it. i think evolutionary psychology provides a good explanation - as long as there was enough fucking prior - dying isn't a big deal - staying alive isn't the main goal.

    honestly i don't think i got rewired otherwise until i had someone depend on me (which apparently actually involves rewiring for man: changes in neural activity, changes in hormone levels, etc).

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    What are you basing this statement on?
    Well I actually first learned this in college in a child development class, but here's something else:

    Physiologic imaging
    The ability to evaluate the form and function of the human mind has undergone almost exponential growth and a paradigm shift in recent years. Magnetic resonance imaging, for example, is now being used to analyze physiology in addition to anatomy. Using diffusion tensor sequences on MRI machines, the rate that molecules diffuse in and out of a specific area of tissue, directionality or anisotropy, and rates of metabolism can be measured. These sequences have found consistent sex differences in human corpus callosal morphology and microstructure.[which?][15][16][17]
    Morphometric analysis has also been used to study specific 3-dimensional mathematical relationships with MRIs, and have found consistent and statistically significant differences across genders.[18][19] Specific algorithms have found significant gender differences in over 70% of cases in one review.[20]

    Research has been done on the shape of the corpus callosum in those with gender identity disorder. Researchers were able to demonstrate that the shape dimorphism of the corpus callosum at birth in biological males who self-identified as female was actually reversed, and that the same held true for biological females who self-identified as male. The publishers of this article argued that the shape of the corpus callosum defined the mental sex of individuals over their physical sex.[20]
    The relationship between the corpus callosum and gender remains an active subject of debate in the scientific and lay community.

    The part about war is my own speculation, though I'm clearly not the only person to think it. It would give men strength in being able to detach, so that they could go away to hunt or fight (most women used to stay in tribal villages together, with children, while most men either hunted or fought off other tribes) ...however, this gave women strengths that men don't have, because the two hemispheres are more connected.

    My other point in response to fia is that if women are more likely to do xyz out of feeling or emotion, men are still more likely to be sociopaths, narcissists, murderers...

    So if we say women are more likely to be feeling types, or even that they are more emotional in a particular way from hormones, this does not in any sense of the word make them less rational than men, who apparently are much more inclined than women toward committing violent crimes and lacking empathy...neither of those things are rational. I am of the opinion most sociopaths need to be put to sleep, and I think the death penalty needs to be kept alive to service that societal need.

    However, there are a very small number of women sociopaths (very small, over 90% are men) and of course there is the occasional woman who actually wants to go into combat.

    This also isn't to say that ALL men are narcissists or sociopaths, nor is it to say that ALL women are more sensitive emotionally, even to the point of being out of control and harming others.

    Which is why I say men and women are equally irrational, just in different ways. Also, anyone who devalues women for having these differences clearly aren't valuing the fact that women tend to see things more holistically than men because of the two sides of the brain being more connected, which means that they understand things that a lot of men might not.

    Though of course there are men who have this ability too.

    I think this may be the reason why women are slightly more likely to be Pe doms or Ps, Fs instead of Ts, and Es instead of Is. The Pe/P preference points to holistic thinking, both Se and Ne see the "big picture" just in different ways.

  4. #174
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    We cool?
    Yup.

  5. #175
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    Now for a better siren song:
    I was going to try to show you up with a "better" Frusciante song, but that's a good one, admittedly.
    Last edited by skylights; 05-05-2013 at 05:32 AM.

  6. #176
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    @Marmotini, I guess I'm wondering in particular what made you say that the difference in observed brain structure is necessarily NOT due to nurture.

    It was my impression (from my *very* limited experience in anatomy/physiology) that scientists are just beginning to brush the surface of cognitive neuroanatomy and neuroplasticity, and that they are discovering more and more ways that behavior and experience shape the nervous system, whereas traditionally the nervous system - and esp the brain - have been viewed as a static system. In other words, traditionally it was that brain causes behavior, but recently there has been a lot of evidence indicating that the reverse can be true as well, that certain behaviors can shape the brain itself.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    @Marmotini, I guess I'm wondering in particular what made you say that the difference in observed brain structure is necessarily NOT due to nurture.

    It was my impression (from my *very* limited experience in anatomy/physiology) that scientists are just beginning to brush the surface of cognitive neuroanatomy and neuroplasticity, and that they are discovering more and more ways that behavior and experience shape the nervous system, whereas traditionally the nervous system - and esp the brain - have been viewed as a static system. In other words, traditionally it was that brain causes behavior, but recently there has been a lot of evidence indicating that the reverse can be true as well, that certain behaviors can shape the brain itself.
    Because of the gender identification of biological sex males who identified as girls/women (and vice versa) could be detected by the corpus collusum at birth.

    That's why I'm one of those annoying people who say, "look people, men and women are equal, but they ain't the same and they ain't ever going to be." However, it also makes me a strong supporter of gays, transgenders, etc. because this stuff to be traced to genes, pheromones, and apparently even brain structure.

    The brain does have plasticity. Apparently people are far more capable of recovering from things like brain injury or trauma or mental laziness I guess than once thought.

    However, there are certain things that don't seem to be reversible, and this is observable in the lower intelligence and seemingly unchangeable behaviors of children raised in the wild by animals for the entirety of their formative years.

  8. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I was going to try to show you up with a "better" Frusciante song, but that's a good one, admittedly.
    That you know his solo stuff is good enough for me :}
    Dirt Farmer

  9. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Well of course. It's just that there's more than way to go about it and some ways have a higher likelihood of success than others. The military, taken from a strictly rational perspective, is not an effective path to a happy life compared to other paths, especially when one has other options available.
    And what if people aren't happy, as I said before, with going to college and following the route you seem to have in mind? So some people in the military aren't happy. That's great. My point is there are people who are drawn to experiencing something beyond the civilian world. You never really know what you are getting into because of the secretive nature of the military. Some people won't like what they find. It happens.

    The stats are pretty crazy and kinda telling.
    "However men and women do not drive the same number of miles under the same conditions- men do about 60-65% more driving than women. Studies show that woman take shorter trips and female drivers have a greater number of minor crashes than do men."

    Are there other factors you haven't considered before telling me how it is?

    If you mean they weren't tried for their war crimes, then you'd be correct. If you mean none were committed, not so much. Also, a good chunk of those guys were drafted or believed they would be and enlisted preemptively. They did not fare well in public opinion and they were treated very badly, which is one reason you don't see the kinds of protests you with our current wars: we now see them as the victims they were. And emotionally, a lot of those guys are trainwrecks. Even the outwardly functional ones.
    The point was that the people protested the war in music, action, art etc. Didn't happen as much that way with 9/11.

    Uhhuh. But as long as young men keep falling for their BS, it's not going to happen.
    I don't get the feeling this is going to go anywhere.

    That's not the only instance. It's why they do a lot of things: they think they can't die. It gets them killed a lot. A lot of them seem constitutionally incapable of being rational in the face of novel experiences and it leaves them vulnerable to those that would profit from their destruction, whether it be fast or slow. But they think they'll be the exception even though there isn't any logical reason for believing this.
    Yeah ok. Watch a lot of movies on the subject?
    Dirt Farmer

  10. #180
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    Edit: I don't know of anyone that didn't want to be in the military and joined. I don't think you would get through basic if you didn't want it. Are there less routes if you don't have money? Yeah sure, but there are ways. I didn't apply for a single scholarship and my school was pretty much paid for until I decided it wasn't for me. I then paid my way through massage therapy school working at Mcdonalds. I picked this. So does everyone else I know in the military. If they don't want it they are gone with a few years of service and a boon or two for their troubles. Yeah, seems as terrible as your wording seems to suggest.
    Many want to be in the military because they see it as the only viable way out of bad circumstances. They don't want to get kicked out of basic, because they know the other alternatives are worse, while the military at least offers them a chance to better their situation. That it does, as the training is usually excellent and the experience worthwhile. You can do your few years, get money for school, and move on. Of course the cost of all that is often putting yourself in harm's way. Moreover, I was surprised to hear in recent years how much trouble many of the troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan have getting civilian jobs. Employers don't seem to value military experience like I assumed they would, credentials don't transfer, and employers often worry that vets will have psychological problems like PTSD that will impede their performance or even make them a danger in the workplace. In any case, if the benefits so outweigh the risks, I would expect more middle-class and wealthy people to join up.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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