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View Poll Results: Are women more irrational than men?

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  • Yes

    12 27.27%
  • No

    27 61.36%
  • Kinda-sorta

    5 11.36%
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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't have a problem with having a military for defense. I think our military is excessive and it is used for purposes that have virtually nothing to do with defense. And I think it's sucky to throw poor people's kids at rich people's problems, which virtually all wars are. And we take terrible care of a lot of our veterans, which I think is deplorable.
    Sounds like we pretty much agree there. Though I don't consider myself or my friends poor people's kids. It is not as if our families didn't love us. We have opportunities. This is the one we selected. I feel like its more of the civilian side of the coin to protest against an unjust/unethical war. During Iraq and Afghanistan we haven't exactly presented the Vietnam face to our government.

    Also, who is "we"?
    Dirt Farmer

  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't have a problem with having a military for defense. I think our military is excessive and it is used for purposes that have virtually nothing to do with defense. And I think it's sucky to throw poor people's kids at rich people's problems, which virtually all wars are. And we take terrible care of a lot of our veterans, which I think is deplorable.
    I agree with all this, to be honest I have a personal radical vision of functions like the military, policing, social work, political representation, all that sort of division fo labour one day becoming just the duties of everyday people and perhaps one day not being required at all.

    Although I'm relatively pragmatic about it because I know the history of Sparta's warrior class vs. the armed, drilled citizenry of "democratic" states. Ireland and other states have proven that armed struggles of members of the public can only hope for a stalemate and only after a protracted struggle and a lot of sacrifice and suffering when they fight armed forces.

    I used to be more skeptical about the critics of US foreign policies, I then thought that all states behave that way and better the US be military hegemon than some of the non-english speaking nations like Russia or China. These days I think the criticism, almost any criticism of the militarism in the US, is fine, so long as it is a criticism of those things are they exist more generally.

  3. #153
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    Sounds like we pretty much agree there. Though I don't consider myself or my friends poor people's kids. It is not as if our families didn't love us. We have opportunities. This is the one we selected. I feel like its more of the civilian side of the coin to protest against an unjust/unethical war. During Iraq and Afghanistan we haven't exactly presented the Vietnam face to our government.

    Also, who is "we"?
    We 'Mericans.

    I don't think it's super rational to have enlisted in the US military if you have other good options knowing that:
    • you'll likely serve in an unjust and/or unethical conflict
    • you have a higher chance of death or injury than in most civiian jobs
    • you'll have a higher rate of suicide compared to those in most civilian jobs
    • you have a higher rate of PTSD and other mental illnesses than in most other civilian jobs
    • your country isn't going to go too much out of its way to help you out if they screw you up
    • you'll be lucky if you get training in something that translates into civilian workplace skills


    For most career tracks, it would be more rational to earn scholarships instead.

    I think the notoriously bad risk assessment abilities of young men (a type of irrationality) has been making this kind of exploitation possible since at least the crusades.

    This is only one example. Young men are more likely to commit suicide, commit homicide, to accidentally crash their cars into things, etc than young women are. I think that indicates a comparatively high level of irrationality in matters impacting basic survival, which is arguably one of the most important things to be rational about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I agree with all this, to be honest I have a personal radical vision of functions like the military, policing, social work, political representation, all that sort of division fo labour one day becoming just the duties of everyday people and perhaps one day not being required at all.

    Although I'm relatively pragmatic about it because I know the history of Sparta's warrior class vs. the armed, drilled citizenry of "democratic" states. Ireland and other states have proven that armed struggles of members of the public can only hope for a stalemate and only after a protracted struggle and a lot of sacrifice and suffering when they fight armed forces.

    I used to be more skeptical about the critics of US foreign policies, I then thought that all states behave that way and better the US be military hegemon than some of the non-english speaking nations like Russia or China. These days I think the criticism, almost any criticism of the militarism in the US, is fine, so long as it is a criticism of those things are they exist more generally.
    We're just the current 800 pound gorilla of the world. It's not anything new.

    Having some kind of standing army is important for defense. I just think what we have is overkill, especially considering we're kind of geographically isolated from most of the countries that might like to take a shot at us.

    But we spend *so* much money, we screw with other countries' governments, and we're neglecting important domestic stuff like education, healthcare, and infrastructure. And most folks are too busy waving flags and being paranoid to even know that we spend more on 'defense' than the next ten countries combined. It makes me kind of crazy sometimes.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    And most folks are too busy waving flags and being paranoid to even know that we spend more on 'defense' than the next ten countries combined. It makes me kind of crazy sometimes.
    Well the "alternative" in the main involves attacking spending per se and not simply militarism, I think after adjustments the US isnt the most militarist nation, the Israelis take the prize I think.

    Its not a good idea and I'd question its benefit or sustainability over the longer term.

    The UK establishment is laughing at how they've managed to "out source" the struggle for hegemony of the english speaking peoples.

  5. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    We 'Mericans.


    I don't think it's super rational to have enlisted in the US military if you have other good options knowing that:
    • you'll likely serve in an unjust and/or unethical conflict
    • you have a higher chance of death or injury than in most civiian jobs
    • you'll have a higher rate of suicide compared to those in most civilian jobs
    • you have a higher rate of PTSD and other mental illnesses than in most other civilian jobs
    • your country isn't going to go too much out of its way to help you out if they screw you up
    • you'll be lucky if you get training in something that translates into civilian workplace skills
    The country is broke. This will be kept to a minimum.
    6,518 died of over 2 million deployed to iraq/afghanistan. Terrible death rate there.
    yep
    Yep
    Yep
    Yep
    Completely incorrect for my branch.

    For most career tracks, it would be more rational to earn scholarships instead.

    I think the notoriously bad risk assessment abilities of young men (a type of irrationality) has been making this kind of exploitation possible since at least the crusades.

    This is only one example. Young men are more likely to commit suicide, commit homicide, to accidentally crash their cars into things, etc than young women are. I think that indicates a comparatively high level of irrationality in matters impacting basic survival, which is arguably one of the most important things to be rational about.



    I am sure you don't intend to make a career of doing a job you don't find interesting/thrilling/fulfilling,
    why would you expect the same of a young man? I don't value your alternative.


    I was speaking of the military not civilian suicide, homicide, car accidents, etc. While we are at it wiki says
    women attempt suicide more often but men use more lethal methods. I don't particularly care
    which sex is currently less rational. As a whole as I feel it is more heavily based on training/upbringing/perception
    than inborn traits.

    I currently hold that is a civilian responsibility to prevent an unjust war or to end one through pressure on elected officals. Soldiers don't decide when and what they will fight for. American soldiers aren't mercenaries.

    For you the scales say the military is a poor choice. That is fine. I am sure you don't want it to be every
    young American's choice.
    Dirt Farmer

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    It could be nature or nurture, but men generally demonstrate more compartmentalism in their cognitive functioning. It has been fascinating to me to see how men can demonstrate certain compartments of clear reasoning, but then also be capable of a level of irrationality that is equally impressive. I have found men also capable of much more single-mindedness and even obsession in their irrationality.
    I don't think this is nurture. The corpus collusum in the brain of women is thicker (binds the two hemispheres together) and it allows men to be able compartmentalize their feelings from their need to act or be logical, which has been explained as a trait which evolved so that men are able to "detach" in order to do things like go away to war.

    This allows men to be able to do these things, but apparently gives women more strength in seeing things holistically, though we aren't as compartmentalized.

    Men are capable of extreme irrationality but apparently it's okay as long as it's anger, amirite?

    Things like sports enthusiasm and aggression are no more "rational" than crying, this is true. Sports enthusiasm and aggression are forms of territoriality, it's focusing things like tribalism and nationalism into football and such.

    Just as these tribal behaviors once served purpose, but seem to cause more problems than I would deem entirely rational in our modern world, I would agree with you that none of these behaviors are linked to logic, and probably also not to rational cognitive functions; and if tribalism is connected to a rational function, I would guess it's actually one of the ethical Fi or Fe rational functions, not the T functions.

  7. #157
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    The country is broke. This will be kept to a minimum.
    6,518 died of over 2 million deployed to iraq/afghanistan. Terrible death rate there.
    Compared to other occupations, it's not great. And the rate and severity of on the job injuries would probably not please OSHA if it was a civilian workplace.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    yep
    Yep
    Yep
    Yep
    Completely incorrect for my branch.
    There are a few other branches that aren't so lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    I am sure you don't intend to make a career of doing a job you don't find interesting/thrilling/fulfilling,
    why would you expect the same of a young man? I don't value your alternative.
    I think the whole career being interesting/thrilling/fulfilling is bs self-help authors sell to middle class kids whose parents can afford to support them well into adulthood, to be honest. There are just too many things that society needs to have done that nobody is going to be thrilled about doing. We can't all be special little snowflakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    I was speaking of the military not civilian suicide, homicide, car accidents, etc. While we are at it wiki says
    women attempt suicide more often but men use more lethal methods. I don't particularly care
    which sex is currently less rational. As a whole as I feel it is more heavily based on training/upbringing/perception
    than inborn traits.
    Statistically, you'd have trouble making a case for everything but suicide attempts and I'm trying not to derail the thread. I have a bad habit of doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    I currently hold that is a civilian responsibility to prevent an unjust war or to end one through pressure on elected officals. Soldiers don't decide when and what they will fight for. American soldiers aren't mercenaries.
    And that'd be mighty close to the Nuremberg defense, especially considering you weren't drafted and you had other options.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheStarchDefenders View Post
    For you the scales say the military is a poor choice. That is fine. I am sure you don't want it to be every
    young American's choice.
    I'd like it to be a choice made by few enough young Americans that we'd be forced to treat you all better and we'd think a little harder about where we send you at and why. Frankly, I hate to see anyone's child thrown away for the financial gain of a small minority.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The simplest way to define differences in gender-based irrationality (whether culturally instilled or nature) can be summed up in one word: "ego".

    "Ego" is by nature the truest form of subjectivity because it values the self over the external world. The ability to comprehend and deal with what happens externally is what objectivity is, while being limited to comprehending only the Self is ego. I don't personally think this is innate to gender, but society accepts and defines the "male ego" while the term the "female ego" is rarely mentioned. There are egotistical women for certain, and just like the case with either gender it does make a person capable of more irrationality. To whatever extent a society accepts the "male ego" (or "female ego") as legitimizing an action, is the same extent it accepts irrationality in that same context.

    I am interested to hear arguments to the contrary.
    What's interesting is that we hear more about the male ego, and numbers of men who are narcissists is higher than women who are diagnosed as narcissists.

    However, I think this may be partly due to socialization, as apparently there have been more cases of female narcissism since girls have slowly been granted equal esteem and pressure to perform as their brothers.

    Men are still more likely to be narcissists, though. They're also more likely to be sociopaths.

    Narcissism is a personality disorder that is largely nurture, due to putting undue pressure on a child to perform externally, being harsh with them and even abusive, causing them to believe they have to achieve externals to be loved. Which is sad. But wait...there's more. The other side to the parental style that creates the narcissist is giving the little narcissist a sense of entitlement that he or she is somehow better than others or exempt in some inexplicable way.

    So apparently societies have been traditionally more likely to give boys this sense of inexplicable, irrational entitlement, but there have slowly been more female narcissists since gender roles are changing.

    Sociopaths, on the other hand, are a lot more nature than nurture, they are incapable of empathy, and well over 90% are men.

    So while I agree men are apparently more likely to lack empathy, either as nurtured narcissists or socipaths, I am not so sure that means they are more "rational." Especially since Ti, Te, Fi and Fe are all rational functions.

    I think men and women are probably equally irrational, just in different biological ways.

    Also, even if someone attempts to make the argument that women would be more likely to do something crazy out of emotion, does that really make it any better than men are more likely to be cold-blooded killers? I mean killing is killing right? (And men are more likely to kill, in general).

    This whole thread pretty much sickens me, but I felt like your posts deserved more acknowledgement than some bratty, emotional dismissal.

  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think the whole career being interesting/thrilling/fulfilling is bs self-help authors sell to middle class kids whose parents can afford to support them well into adulthood, to be honest. There are just too many things that society needs to have done that nobody is going to be thrilled about doing. We can't all be special little snowflakes.
    We sure as hell can try to enjoy our lives.

    Statistically, you'd have trouble making a case for everything but suicide attempts and I'm trying not to derail the thread. I have a bad habit of doing that.
    You brought that up. It was just something I was correcting.

    And that'd be mighty close to the Nuremberg defense, especially considering you weren't drafted and you had other options.
    Remember Nam? Seemed to do alright there.
    I'd like it to be a choice made by few enough young Americans that we'd be forced to treat you all better and we'd think a little harder about where we send you at and why. Frankly, I hate to see anyone's child thrown away for the financial gain of a small minority.
    I think pretty much anyone would agree on this.
    Dirt Farmer

  10. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    This whole thread pretty much sickens me, but I felt like your posts deserved more acknowledgement than some bratty, emotional dismissal.
    Just remember what train-wreck inspired it.
    Dirt Farmer

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