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  1. #1
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    Default Do ExTJ Women Make Angry Housewives?

    This is partially tongue in cheek, which is why I put it in "other psych" instead of MBTI theory section, but I'm one by one trying to psychologically analyze each of my parental figures as I go.

    Easiest was grandpa. He was old and is now dead, and did his best with me, practically was my "mommy" for most of my life, and a great teacher for things like reading and history; so I empathized with what I hated about him first.

    Second was my real mommy. I realized once I understood her I had no substantial reason to be angry at this pitiable train-wreck of an abused woman, and I actually admire how far she's come in middle age in terms of being strong, independent, and growing, really trying to set an example for her daughters to not "stay stuck" in her own sort of way.

    I will never be able be able to completely understand my father, since he was so absent, so the final piece of the puzzle is my grandfather's pushy ESTJ wife who I was angry at for many years because of how pushy she was, and how she lacked empathy. She never hit me, but I considered the severity of her behavior emotionally abusive during my teen years, though she was easier to get along with as a child.

    My mom doesn't like her, either.

    But I realized that this woman tried with every part of her to make me strong and feminist, and to not be my mother. Even when I was angry, I kind of had to admit that the reason I'm probably so strong and independent is because of her, though grandpa dispensed the money and the book smarts. The two things combined together have done wonders in keeping my obvious emotionally disturbed crazy train reasonably in check so I'm a relatively functional non-dependent human being.

    I now wonder if ESTJ women in general are unhappy as housewives unless they have an entire empire to run, you know, like an estate or being the matriarch of a wealthy family.

    Because that's how I always saw ESTJ, I saw her almost having this delusion of being this powerful woman, like she wanted to be the evil rich lady on Dynasty or something.

    And she was independent. She voted Democrat while my grandfather voted Republican (my grandmother, and even my uncle, never did such a thing, though my mom does) and eventually worked outside of the home. She cursed at toilets and snatched up people's drinking glasses while they were still drinking their tea.

    She focused all of her Te into obsessive linear order in the home, and it still wasn't enough for her. She was angry and oppressed, and that's why she always told me I didn't need a man.

    Of course I need men for emotional and sexual reasons, being a heterosexual woman with a strong sex drive, but she meant in the sense of being taken care of by a husband.

    And maybe that's why she was emotionally abusive. She wasn't satisfied with what life threw her, and I think she was probably happiest after my grandfather died (and that of course also did not engender affection in mine nor my mother's hearts, naturally).

    But objectively speaking, are ExTJ women angry housewives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I now wonder if ESTJ women in general are unhappy as housewives unless they have an entire empire to run, you know, like an estate or being the matriarch of a wealthy family.
    I've been watching old episodes of "Keeping Up With the Kardashians." Cheesy, I know. But Kris Jenner, the mom of the family, strikes me as a typical ESTJ matriarch. The family is a business project to be managed or an empire to be expanded; and she gets pretty neurotic under stress.

    I know that a lot of that stuff is scripted, but I think it's easier to spot true personality types on reality TV than in other types of TV or movies. So I sometimes check out reality TV just to see the personality types in action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I've been watching old episodes of "Keeping Up With the Kardashians." Cheesy, I know. But Kris Jenner, the mom of the family, strikes me as a typical ESTJ matriarch. The family is a business project to be managed or an empire to be expanded; and she gets pretty neurotic under stress.

    I know that a lot of that stuff is scripted, but I think it's easier to spot true personality types on reality TV than in other types of TV or movies. So I sometimes check out reality TV just to see the personality types in action.
    Yeah I think a lot of stage mother types, I mean the real obsessive ones who are focused on the money and a certain display of perfection, are ESTJ rather than ESFJ, much of the time. The ESFJ is likely to be a "softer" stage-mother, seeing the child still as a family member and not as an object.

    I think my step-monster loves me in her own way (she swore this to me about six months after my grandfather died, even though I called her up screaming at her at about 4 am once in his last days) ...but she didn't come to his funeral, and she essentially seemed to completely divorce herself from his family once he passed away.

    I think she genuinely loved him in the beginning, though, I just think he was used my ISFJ grandmother being this really cool, reserved but otherwise nurturing and traditional woman; my grandmother taught Sunday school, worked as a secretary at one point, but overall was a very natural motherly type, and probably more submissive.

    He was always suspecting ESTJ of going out on him though I was always pretty sure it wasn't because she was a ho, but simply because she was really that independent and self-directed. She was the boss, she made that perfectly clear to everyone, and it was like something in her upbringing couldn't reconcile her just being alone? I guess she did love my grandfather, or something in her said she didn't do anything with her life if she didn't have a husband too, but she was born a little too early to be part of that whole second wave feminist movement, though she was a little younger than my grandpa.

    She taught me how to dance, told me how to dress, made me wear my hair a certain way until I was in high school, and wasn't a big fan of reading; I never suspected her of being an ENTJ despite her petty ambitions, because I think an ENTJ would have found more relief in ideas or would have mapped out some kind of alternative life-plan, where I think she was more Si in needed her frustrated Te to be focused strongly "in the real world" and also was the reason she felt so trapped by social norms of abiding to the perfect image of traditional wife-hood, I think that was Si, not Fe.

    Because she was one of those ladies who chopped all of her hair off at 45 and said fuck you, this is easier to maintain, but always wore a shitload of gold jewelry and had claw-like fingernails, more like Te status symbols of personal power than any kind of Fe agreement with being feminine and sweet and traditional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Because she was one of those ladies who chopped all of her hair off at 45 and said fuck you, this is easier to maintain, but always wore a shitload of gold jewelry and had claw-like fingernails, more like Te status symbols of personal power than any kind of Fe agreement with being feminine and sweet and traditional.
    She sounds cool.

    I have an ESTJ step-mother. My step-siblings and those siblings that grew up under her have varying degrees of love-hate relationship with her. She was such a big influence in their life that even though they love her, they still feel that they had to struggle to get out from under her shadow.

    As for me, I was already grown up and out of the house by the time my father married her. So I think she’s a hoot. I just ignore her when she tries to “manage” me. I’m probably her biggest defender in the family (after my father), because I “get” the ESTJ character and admire it (from a safe distance.)

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    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I now wonder if ESTJ women in general are unhappy as housewives unless they have an entire empire to run, you know, like an estate or being the matriarch of a wealthy family.

    Because that's how I always saw ESTJ, I saw her almost having this delusion of being this powerful woman, like she wanted to be the evil rich lady on Dynasty or something.

    And she was independent. She voted Democrat while my grandfather voted Republican (my grandmother, and even my uncle, never did such a thing, though my mom does) and eventually worked outside of the home. She cursed at toilets and snatched up people's drinking glasses while they were still drinking their tea.

    She focused all of her Te into obsessive linear order in the home, and it still wasn't enough for her. She was angry and oppressed, and that's why she always told me I didn't need a man.

    Of course I need men for emotional and sexual reasons, being a heterosexual woman with a strong sex drive, but she meant in the sense of being taken care of by a husband.

    And maybe that's why she was emotionally abusive. She wasn't satisfied with what life threw her, and I think she was probably happiest after my grandfather died (and that of course also did not engender affection in mine nor my mother's hearts, naturally).

    But objectively speaking, are ExTJ women angry housewives?
    I think you answered your own question with the bolded.

    Your grandfather's wife sounds like an 8 (or counterphobic 6?), which is probably part of it -- but regardless of enneagram type, ESTJs want to be in control of their own lives. They want to provide for others, because when they aren't helping people or improving situations, they feel useless, helpless, pointless. Like an object that people are throwing around. And the only way to guarantee that they won't be in that situation, is if they pave their own way and take control of your own destiny.

    But if you're in a situation where it's socially expected that you become an object, like that, then that means you no longer have that control, no longer have that independence, and no longer have the ability to make things better as you see fit. In other words, it's a perfect recipe for driving an ESTJ crazy, because if the purpose in life for an ESTJ is to make sure things run smoothly, and suddenly the ESTJ is no longer allowed to do that...

    So, yes, I think that if an ESTJ is forced into being a housewife, then they'll be miserable, and they'll be angry. Like a caged lioness. BUT... if they choose that path, and if what they truly want out of life is to be a full-time wife and mother, then sure, they'll be control freaks, but they probably won't be angry or abusive, because they'll be fulfilling their Purpose In The World.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think you answered your own question with the bolded.

    Your grandfather's wife sounds like an 8 (or counterphobic 6?), which is probably part of it -- but regardless of enneagram type, ESTJs want to be in control of their own lives. They want to provide for others, because when they aren't helping people or improving situations, they feel useless, helpless, pointless. Like an object that people are throwing around. And the only way to guarantee that you won't be in that situation, is to pave your own way and take control of your own destiny.

    But if you're in a situation where it's socially expected that you become an object, like that, then that means you no longer have that control, no longer have that independence, and no longer have the ability to make things better as you see fit. In other words, it's a perfect recipe for driving an ESTJ crazy, because if the purpose in life for an ESTJ is to make sure things run smoothly, and suddenly the ESTJ is no longer allowed to do that...

    So, yes, I think that if an ESTJ is forced into being a housewife, then they'll be miserable, and they'll be angry. Like caged lionesses. But if they choose that path, and if what they truly want out of life is to be a full-time wife and mother, then sure, they'll be control freaks, but they probably won't be angry or abusive, because they'll be fulfilling their Purpose In The World.
    Yes I think this is a great post, and thank you for answering. I'm pretty sure she was an actual 8. The 6 was likely my grandfather, who was anxious of outsiders, wanted the blinds closed when the sun went down, oh noes his wife might cheat on him if she's independent-minded, etc. etc.

    I would guess they were 8w7 and 6w5. She with a more fun or liberal 7 wing, and him with a more conservative (counter?)phobic 6 nature coupled with a more studious 5 wing (he was more of a reader, et al).

    And she was right about my grandfather. She said once "if he ever stops working completely, god save us all, and he'll probably also die then." And when he became too ill to work even part-time, and had to be dependent on family members, he was extremely cranky (more so than usual), just randomly saying horrible hyper-critical things to people, and yes he died after that, but he also had poor health, which is why he was forced to be dependent in the first place.

    Because I think as an ESTJ she understood that aspect of his ISTJ nature.

    Caged lionness is very apt. I like that.

    I'm glad for your perspective, because I see you as being such a cool and healthy ESTJ.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yes I think this is a great post, and thank you for answering.
    No problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm pretty sure she was an actual 8. The 6 was likely my grandfather, who was anxious of outsiders, wanted the blinds closed when the sun went down, oh noes his wife might cheat on him if she's independent-minded, etc. etc.
    Oh jeez, the bolded sucks. I was just thinking as I wrote my previous post that the only other way I could think that an ESTJ would enjoy being a housewife would be if her husband gave her the independence that she craved, in addition to the expected tasks in the home*... but it doesn't sound like he gave her that. Man, I'd be angry too, if I were her. (Not excusing the abuse, btw, because abuse is inexcusable.)

    *This would be the case with any number of other independent types; for example, my grandmother was probably an ESFP, and she was a happy housewife because my (likely) IxTJ grandfather gave her a ton of freedom to socialize, do volunteer work, organize bridge/book clubs and golf trips, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    And she was right about my grandfather. She said once "if he ever stops working completely, god save us all, and he'll probably also die then." And when he became too ill to work even part-time, and had to be dependent on family members, he was extremely cranky (more so than usual), just randomly saying horrible hyper-critical things to people, and yes he died after that, but he also had poor health, which is why he was forced to be dependent in the first place.

    Because I think as an ESTJ she understood that aspect of his ISTJ nature.
    I wonder if she understood that about him because she was the same way. I know I, as an ESTJ, kind of feel like a fish, in that I don't think I'd survive if I stopped swimming...
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Caged lionness is very apt. I like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm glad for your perspective, because I see you as being such a cool and healthy ESTJ.
    No problem. I'm glad it was helpful.

    Just to reiterate: I do think the choice element is important here. It's all a matter of: did the ESTJ choose this path for herself, because she knew it was the path that was best for her? She's only "caged" if she was trapped in that situation somehow.

    And also: I think pretty much any other independent-minded type would be an angry housewife, in that situation. The difference is the ESTJ coping mechanism would likely be to take control of whatever she could, just so she could feel like she had some sort of useful job to do... And then she'd probably be very territorial about it. Other types might just stare out the window and dream of a better future.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    God, I don't know, but my dad's late girlfriend was likely an EXTJ and she was always unpleasant around me even though she was never a housewife. If someone like that had raised me, I'd have probably offed myself.

    She said stuff like "I only have one kid and I didn't want that one!"

    But I can't imagine that all EXTJ women are like that.

    My grandma was an ISXJ and she could be pretty caustic with people, but she wasn't that way with me. Though that woman could nag like nothing I've ever seen before or since. She was a lot like Rabbit on Disney's Winnie the Pooh. She encouraged me to at least have a skill to 'fall back on.'
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    My mother and one sibling are both ESTJ females. The loudest, most independent, argumentative, control-freaks I've ever come across. My father was an INTP. It didn't go well (they divorced when I was eight, and that didn't go well either). He died last March, and after the funeral, I decided to drop by and see her as it had been a while (they both lived in the same city two hours from me). The first thing she said, knowing I'd just come from his funeral and regarding his death, was, "I won!" with a huge, truly sincere, grin.

    That's my mother in a nutshell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    God, I don't know, but my dad's late girlfriend was likely an EXTJ and she was always unpleasant around me even though she was never a housewife. If someone like that had raised me, I'd have probably offed myself.
    My ENFJ bff from high school says she's very proud and relieved that I am not a serial killer.

    She said stuff like "I only have one kid and I didn't want that one!"

    But I can't imagine that all EXTJ women are like that.

    My grandma was an ISXJ and she could be pretty caustic with people, but she wasn't that way with me. Though that woman could nag like nothing I've ever seen before or since. She was a lot like Rabbit on Disney's Winnie the Pooh. She encouraged me to at least have a skill to 'fall back on.'
    No, I think it depends on health levels and circumstances, of course.

    I actually like a lot of ENTJs, and look how cool our EJCC is, and she's ESTJ.

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