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  1. #41
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    And why would any act be more impersonal and objective than the other if they essentially operate on the same principles?
    That is the point: they do not operate on the same principles.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    And why would any act be more impersonal and objective than the other if they essentially operate on the same principles?
    It doesn't matter if they operate on the same principals of an individual.

    It's more "objective", or rather inter-subjective, because the collective agrees upon the terms and conditions.. supposedly.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That is the point: they do not operate on the same principles.
    Then if that is true, then why distinguishing the two based on the value judgements that one is subjective and another objective?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderCrayCray View Post
    It doesn't matter if they operate on the same principals of an individual.

    It's more "objective", or rather inter-subjective, because the collective agrees upon the terms and conditions.. supposedly.
    Yes, but that's my point. Then why assert that one is objective because that begs the question, based on whose standards and why? And why would this ultimately be considered objective? Is agreement the same as not stating one's opinion/being in disagreement?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #44
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Meh. Vengeance is typically more hassle than it's worth in my experience.
    And yet, some of my favorite characters in stories seek vengeance.



    Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when none pursueth.

    People do not give it credence that a young girl could leave home and go off in the wintertime to avenge her father's blood, but it did happen. I was just fourteen years of age when a coward by the name of Tom Chaney shot my father down and robbed him of his life, and his horse, and two California gold pieces he carried in his trouser band.

    Chaney was a hired man and Papa had taken him up to Fort Smith to help lead back a string of Mustang ponies he'd bought. In town, Chaney had fallen to drink and cards and lost all his money. He got it into his head that he was being cheated, and went back to the boarding house for his Henry rifle. When Papa tried to intervene, Chaney shot him. Chaney fled. He could have walked his horse, for not a soul in that city could be bothered to give chase.

    No doubt Chaney fancied himself scot-free, but he was wrong. You must pay for everything in this world, one way and another. There is nothing free, except the grace of God.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post

    Yes, but that's my point. Then why assert that one is objective because that begs the question, based on whose standards and why? And why would this ultimately be considered objective? Is agreement the same as not stating one's opinion/being in disagreement?
    Nothing is objective. <--LOL) We merely fool ourselves into believing it so.

    It's a matter of degrees in self perception vs coercive projection.

    I answered your questions if you're game enough.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderCrayCray View Post
    Nothing is objective. <--LOL) We merely fool ourselves into believing it so.

    It's a matter of degrees in self perception vs coercive projection.

    I answered your questions if you're game enough.
    But I wanted to hear the answers expressed by those who made it. That you simply provided the argument "everything is subjective" isn't a logically satisfying answer.

    Yes, I understand your reasoning, yes, at some level I can agree with it, but if you're game enough, you'd also understand the relevance of my questions I asked in return, especially the last one.

    Also, what does coercive projection mean to you? Would you separate this from structure?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  7. #47
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    I answered it.

    the use of the words "coercive" and "projection" should make it clear that it IS in fact the result of giving in to the collective, and choosing not to express your own flavor of reality.

    You can't have it both ways. Either you choose to believe in the "objective" because you're not willing to do the work yourself, or fear social stigma, else stand your ground and speak your own truth.

    When the term "objective" is used, I read an implied use of force, yet deny it's influence into my personal boundaries of play.

    As for the difference between coercive projection and structure, I do think there's a difference. Structure is actualized potential, but the use of coercive projection is an attempt to actualize your own potential in a preconceived way, by another user.

    So basically, we're free to either latch onto the structure as already defined, else recreate it as we best see it in our minds, and express it as such.

  8. #48
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    I agree with @Lark on the whole "natural causes" thing. Whatever vengeance one instills could be considered a natural consequence of having slighted them. 'course, the consequences vary with the individual and the severity.

    Personally -- from a metaperspective, I often wonder to what extent I ought to be a natural consequence--to what extent I should try to reciprocate out of fairness, how exactly compassion ought to manifest itself, etc. I have the luxury of pondering over that one over, both in general and case-by-case, because I'm not one to act swiftly and emotionally in-the-moment.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I agree with @Lark on the whole "natural causes" thing. Whatever vengeance one instills could be considered a natural consequence of having slighted them. 'course, the consequences vary with the individual and the severity.

    Personally -- from a metaperspective, I often wonder to what extent I ought to be a natural consequence--to what extent I should try to reciprocate out of fairness, how exactly compassion ought to manifest itself, etc. I have the luxury of pondering over that one over, both in general and case-by-case, because I'm not one to act swiftly and emotionally in-the-moment.
    Sometimes the most horrendous and revenge warranting actions can be slow to be discovered or suspected by the people falling prey to them.

    In my own experience the people who are the most predatory and deserving of revenge being enacted on them are not right, they'll rationalise that they're like Dexter or even a more mundane example of schemer and plotter but tell themselves that they're more clever than their victims or the next person but strip away the drama and what have you? Pathetic individuals who cant be trusted, reciprocating trust is a fairly easy thing to do, most people do it every day without much difficulty.

  10. #50
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Then if that is true, then why distinguishing the two based on the value judgements that one is subjective and another objective?
    I suppose it comes down to what one means by principles. In this context, I am considering them a form of values. Revenge is usually personal in the sense that it is done to provide emotional satisfaction to the person seeking it. The nature of this satisfaction and whether a particular form of revenge provides it is specific to the person, and the wrong committed. Justice, in contrast, appeals to more impersonal standards that apply to everyone. Justice also usually includes some sense of balance: the punishment fitting the crime, or providing restitution to make up for what was taken or destroyed. Revenge, being essentially emotional, often involves overkill, making the wrongdoer suffer as opposed to making him pay.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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