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  1. #31
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    !

    Thanks for bringing it back to type, too. It doesn't surprise me much at all that the people with more "vengeful" tendencies on this thread so far are counterphobic Sixes and Eights, the ones who don't have it at all are the Fives, and that the ones who deny it/suppress it/don't have it, but have strong opinions on it, are Nines and Ones.
    You're correct, although 6s could also suppress a need for justice or revenge just like 1s being a superego type. I wasn't personally aware that I'm vengeful and I didn't see myself as such either in any particular way until a friend of mine who is also into enneagram theory pointed out that the tritype I claimed to be which was 549 at the time just didn't seem to fit; I was clearly too revengeful. And I don't deny my tendencies (although some 1s who accept being wrathful can be as justice-seeking as an 8 is vengeful), I'm just not seeing it as something that makes me vengeful as a person. If someone told me straight out that I'm vengeful my immediate response to that would be something like WTF.

    I still don't understand how I'm unconsciously revengeful for most of the part in the sense my friend detected in me but I share many characteristics of how 8s justify their vengeance telling myself they had it coming, they deserved it and so on. When I feel that way the knee-jerk reaction is also so immediate I just kind of stop thinking of anything else than how I am going to plan out my revenge. It's truly reactive in the actual sense of the word and I will enact on it if I can.

    My primary concern tends to revolve around those people not being able to hurt those I care about including myself anymore in any way. Then I actually don't care about others and this is how I'd separate the revenge-strategies of 8 from other types because my concern is only those I immediately involve myself with. That's why 8s are selfish and their integration point is towards 2.

    Not because I'm saying I'm an 8, but my revenge-think is definitely driven in an 8-way. I am not sure exactly if a 5, logically speaking, would even concern himself with revengel from an intellectual standpoint. You would argue that it's too much of an effort to bother and the fear of engulfment would in most cases make the 5 act against any such impulses despite connections to 7 and 8, both being id types which arguably makes enneatype 5 the least morally inhibited out of the types in the withdrawn triad.

    No wonder us 5s with a strong connection to 8 and/or 8 fix are likened to Mr. Scrooge/the Gringe (probably exaggerated by sx first which just lacks the smoothness of so and the more lurking attitude of sp), and the superego influence we do have in terms of competence can make us seem arrogant because it's driven by the 7 and 8 logic that we are at some level inherently right. Not in a morally right sense, but in a narcissist and lust-like sense. I know I'm right because I "love" my knowledge and I know I'm right because I get what I want.

    But yes, for 5s, I suspect at least that their revenge/justice-strategies probably highly depends on wing, other lines of connections and tritype fixations as a whole. I doubt a 59X type would be overly concerned about revenge or justice as concepts.

    It should be noted that my 6 wing although clearly overshadowed by 4, is counterphobic. I doubt that plays much of a role in my overall psychological makeup in this sense though, since I don't feel much superego influence from 6, but it definitely makes me more reactive. I'm probably as close as you can get to a reactive 5. I'm very reactive for a 5, anyway.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I understand your sentiment, but I also think completely disregarding cultural impact on values and personality is idiotic.
    I understand this which is why I said that you should be careful discussing the subject so it doesn't deteriorate into something which wasn't intended. Personally though, I don't think culture or upbringing has played a large role in how I view and understand vengeance. My family is as a whole very laid back and so is Swedish culture. Swedes don't like to create open conflict, it's not a part of our cultural behavior.

    When I'm in revenge-mode though, I won't really care. I just act on gut impulse and stop thinking. I think the fact that you consider the relevance of community and how it shapes people is in a way, very 6-like logic.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I understand this which is why I said that you should be careful discussing the subject so it doesn't deteriorate into something which wasn't intended.
    Thank you, pastor, for your advice, but I think I've got that covered, including in another thread with an even more touchy cultural subject.

    Personally though, I don't think culture or upbringing has played a large role in how I view and understand vengeance. My family is as a whole very laid back and so is Swedish culture. Swedes don't like to create open conflict, it's not a part of our cultural behavior.
    Does not matter. You absorb culture, even if you don't adhere to it, it's a part of who you are, and I do think it affects enneagram probably more than MBTI type, which can be absolutely varied in any culture...the Fe of a culture is the Fe of that particular culture, in that way, it creates a huge values-centered impact. Same with Si and personal subjective internalized experience.

    That doesn't mean, though, that Se or Fi would go completely untouched by it, it just means that the SFJs of any given culture are more likely to embody it, and even if you're an INTJ counterphobic 6 who acts against it...you're still acting against it.

    When I'm in revenge-mode though, I won't really care. I just act on gut impulse and stop thinking. I think the fact that you consider the relevance of community and how it shapes people is in a way, very 6-like logic.
    I'm a huge fan of sociology, yes.

  4. #34

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    There's so called hot and cold revenge the same as there's hot and cold aggression, ie reactive and proactive aggression, some people are more self-aware and self-controlled in all their behaviour, carefully considering how best to respond to others behaviour.

    The various sorts of "revenge lore" are popularly known, ie "dish best served cold", "dig two graves" etc.

    They all council anyone considering it to realise that the long game rather than reactive responses are best in the service of revenge also that it is one of those things which can become all consuming or stimulate obsession which can be self-defeating.

  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Vengeance appeals to me, but I generally do not indulge the impulse. I have too strong a sense of self-preservation. And it is against my religion, which I try to honor.

    There was this one time when someone did something pretty terrible to me. I wanted to get them back. The only thing I actually did was, when invited to a party put on for their spouse, brought a card which I signed "May God bless you as you've blessed me." After that, I felt like it was in the right hands and I could let it go. I think that's the worst vengeful thing I've intentionally done as an adult, if you want to call that vengeful.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    The concepts of 'desiring justice' and 'desiring revenge' are usually more interconnected than people like to believe. Latter denomination sounds less noble and more selfish in comparison, but the actual results aren't necessarily different - the only basic difference is the level of arbitrariness - justice makes it sounds like there's a collective consensus supporting the fairness of the punishment, while the fairness of the revenge varies wildly, as the emotional involvement with the situation can easily pervert the proper notion of justice.

    Still, revenge done strictly right, should be indistinguishable from justice.

    And justice is good.

    I guess.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  7. #37
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    The concepts of 'desiring justice' and 'desiring revenge' are usually more interconnected than people like to believe. Latter denomination sounds less noble and more selfish in comparison, but the actual results aren't necessarily different - the only basic difference is the level of arbitrariness - justice makes it sounds like there's a collective consensus supporting the fairness of the punishment, while the fairness of the revenge varies wildly, as the emotional involvement with the situation can easily pervert the proper notion of justice.

    Still, revenge done strictly right, should be indistinguishable from justice.

    And justice is good.

    I guess.
    Why must desiring revenge sound less noble?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  8. #38
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Why must desiring revenge sound less noble?
    It is not that it must, it just often does. Revenge is highly personal and subjective. Justice is more impersonal and objective. Obviously, one can be dressed up as the other, but that is the main distinction.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 04-23-2013 at 09:08 AM. Reason: typo
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #39
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    @Marmotini

    If you asked me a year ago I would have said "I'm not vengeful." Studying enneagram really forced me to think and observe myself. I tend to observe, absorb and percolate rather than "think." I think about my fantasy projects, and pragmatic things, and I emote, but I don't plan revenge or think about what someone else deserves. I'm just too damn selfish. If I'm angry enough, I'll just cut someone off, and I won't bother with them anymore unless they get in my way, and then I'll do what I must to stop them from daring to cross me again. However, from examining myself further, I do relate, more than I'd like to admit, to the type 8 idea of revenge on the whole world. I do have the type of mentality like "the world is not going to hand anything to me and most people are selfish, so if I don't take what I want for myself, I'll end up with nothing." I also observe my patterns in the past and it's completely unconscious, and I can only see it in retrospect, but I've done some strange things like, when a boyfriend who I thought was the love of my life took my virginity and then cheated on me, I left him, and then took other peoples' virginity and refused to commit to them. I conquered other men - quite openly and shamelessly, with no remorse or guilt - as a revenge on the world for ruining my idea of what love is, or for making me vulnerable and subject to such pain. It's unconscious; it happens through my actions. If I sat back and thought about what I was doing, I'd never act like such a jerk, because it really is not my intent, but it is just the way I get when I'm unhealthy. Hopefully studying enneagram and really having a good look at this stuff will help me to recognize these patterns before they happen, so I can stop being a slave to my own compulsions.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is not that it must, it just often does. Revenge is highly personal and subjective. Justice is more impersonal and objective. Obviously, one can be dressed up as the other, but that is the main distinction.
    And why would any act be more impersonal and objective than the other if they essentially operate on the same principles?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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