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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    O rly? Then please explain to me why the South has maintained a very cohesive culture in the face of massive changes in other parts of the country. Or why Japan is one of the most ancient and revered cultures (another Honor Culture, want to discuss why we felt like we had to drop an H-bomb on them? Their sense of death before dishonor).
    There are a lot of problems with this question, but I'll try to keep it simple.

    One, I don't necessarily have any reason to be impressed with the areas you reference, particularly the south eastern USA. It's debatable to what extant they can make the claims you've claimed for them. I do notice that both the south USA and Japan have a massive xenophobic streak, I'd suggest that has more to do with cultural cohesion (whether or not cultural cohesion is even a good thing).

    Secondly, nothing you say shows us that these societies are succeeding (if they are) because of honor culture, and not in spite of it. Japan does have one, but it's frankly been really watered down from what it used to be. As it stands, the significance of an honor culture in a society does seem to inversely correlate with its development. Third world countries and so-called failed states or zones of chaos show us the strongest honor cultures, while the advanced first world democracies tend to show us the weakest honor cultures. Japan might be the biggest exception there, but then modern Japan's honor culture has no comparison to Afghanistan's. This trend continues within countries. The south east may have the strongest honor culture, but it is frankly also the least advanced region of the USA. It has the worst education, the worst health, and the most poverty, last I checked. Problem pockets exist in the rest of the USA, of course, but generally the south east is the worst off.

    In short, honor culture does not make a good name for itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I think some anarcho-capitalist libertarians, who are decidedly not Southern, espouse forms of personal vengeance or self-protection over preemptive governmental institutional structures of punishment or social control.
    I think anarcho-capitalist libertarians maintain one of the worst socio-economic ideologies ever conceived, so this certainly doesn't change my opinion any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Honor cultures are that in which small groups of people maintain personal integrity as a word of bond (like in the South the idea that your word is as good as your name, this can be settled on a handshake, etc....and surprisingly, you really can trust a lot of old-fashioned people in the South because of this) and the flip-side of that being you take justice into your own hands.
    I have some reservations about how meaningful it really is in the south. That aside, why did you think you needed to explain what an honor culture is to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    In my teens and part of my twenties I had a deep and prevailing conviction that this was morally correct behavior, and you know what? JTG1984 believes in vengeance, and places honor much higher than I would, and his mother's family is Japanese.
    ...okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I asked Simulated World once if certain kinds of Fe could look like Fi. Like maybe Honor Culture Fe looks like Fi because of the emphasis on personal integrity and personally enacted vengeance.
    At this part, I couldn't care less about such a question, so that's for you to figure out.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #12
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    To answer the questions in the OP: I think it's in our nature. Even monkeys have a sense of fairness and justice, to a limited extent; studies have been done on it, and there are videos of experiments on YouTube. I could see the desire for Just Punishment as being a necessary extension of that sense. But I do think that what happened in the Type 1 thread about "vengefulness" is a good example of how it's also personality-related, even though I'm pretty sure that the glorification of revenge, regardless of how it's suppressed (or not), is universal.

    To talk more about "vengeance" in general: I'm all about justice, but justice and vengeance are not the same thing. If you're "vengeful", then you take revenge on those who have done you (or your loved ones) wrong. Which sounds good in theory, and oftentimes appeals to me in the abstract, but in my opinion -- and perhaps in the opinion of other type ones (though I have no way of knowing that either way) -- revenge is not productive. It may give a very base form of satisfaction, but oftentimes you end up sinking to their level in order to exact it. So, in your quest for justice, your judgment is so clouded by anger* that you end up sacrificing your own principles for The Greater Good -- in essence, becoming a hypocrite. "An eye for an eye" essentially means "Let's do the same wrong act in return for this other wrong act, because it doesn't matter if it's wrong as long as I'm doing it for the right reasons".**

    So, I strive to not be vengeful, because vengeance is essentially running away from the right path, instead of towards it. And if someone calls me vengeful, that means they're accusing me of something that I try very hard not to do.

    *Like you talked about astutely in the OP, @Marmotini.

    **Edit: I think this may be roughly the point that @tinker683 has been making, about the slippery slope -- which I completely agree with.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    There are a lot of problems with this question, but I'll try to keep it simple.

    One, I don't necessarily have any reason to be impressed with the areas you reference, particularly the south eastern USA. It's debatable to what extant they can make the claims you've claimed for them. I do notice that both the south USA and Japan have a massive xenophobic streak, I'd suggest that has more to do with cultural cohesion (whether or not cultural cohesion is even a good thing).

    Secondly, nothing you say shows us that these societies are succeeding (if they are) because of honor culture, and not in spite of it. Japan does have one, but it's frankly been really watered down from what it used to be. As it stands, the significance of an honor culture in a society does seem to inversely correlate with its development. Third world countries and so-called failed states or zones of chaos show us the strongest honor cultures, while the advanced first world democracies tend to show us the weakest honor cultures. Japan might be the biggest exception there, but then modern Japan's honor culture has no comparison to Afghanistan's. This trend continues within countries. The south east may have the strongest honor culture, but it is frankly also the least advanced region of the USA. It has the worst education, the worst health, and the most poverty, last I checked. Problem pockets exist in the rest of the USA, of course, but generally the south east is the worst off.
    Way to generalize, Professor; actually the worst ranked public school in the nation is in Chicago. Outside of Arkansas, most appear to be in the Midwest, or in urban inner cities.

    I went to high school at a high school that is now recognized as an International Baccalaureate school. We had the best choral department in the county, and the year after I graduated, my favorite English teacher won best teacher for the entire state. Of North Carolina.

    Though Texas has the worst healthcare in the nation, the Texas is this weird South-Western outlaw kind of state, it's not at all the genteel old South, and you can get excellent health care in West Virginia; much better than Nevada, for example.

    Also, it's much easier to buy a house and own property as a poor person in West Virginia than as a middle-class person in Los Angeles or San Francisco, CA.

    You seem to have an usual bias against the South, a rather skewed one at that. Sure the South has its bad points, but it also has its good points, and it's not your bastard excuse for everything you hate about the U.S.

    The U.S. South is a scapegoat. Nothing more, nothing less.

    In short, honor culture does not make a good name for itself.
    Honor cultures are a little of both, actually. They have good and bad points just like other cultures.



    I think anarcho-capitalist libertarians maintain one of the worst socio-economic ideologies ever conceived, so this certainly doesn't change my opinion any.
    Oh I know, and I did not suggest that it would.

    I have some reservations about how meaningful it really is in the south. That aside, why did you think you needed to explain what an honor culture is to me?



    ...okay?



    At this part, I couldn't care less about such a question, so that's for you to figure out.
    Start here.

  4. #14
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    What is the difference between vengeance and justice? Must justice be obtained through a socially sanctioned process (e.g. invocation of public law, enforced by official police and courts)? What if this process fails? Sometimes natural consequences catch up with people who do wrong, but not always. Allowing someone to get away with wrongdoing is neither justice nor vengeance.

    Personally, the only vengeance I ever seek is justice, and justice is centered on admission of guilt and restitution. In other words: if you did something wrong, admit it, take responsibility, and fix it to the best of your ability or provide some alternate compensation.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #15
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What is the difference between vengeance and justice? Must justice be obtained through a socially sanctioned process (e.g. invocation of public law, enforced by official police and courts)? What if this process fails? Sometimes natural consequences catch up with people who do wrong, but not always. Allowing someone to get away with wrongdoing is neither justice nor vengeance.

    Personally, the only vengeance I ever seek is justice, and justice is centered on admission of guilt and restitution. In other words: if you did something wrong, admit it, take responsibility, and fix it to the best of your ability or provide some alternate compensation.
    ^ Exactly.

    I'd been defining vengeance as essentially meaning punishment, so a vengeful person would be someone who wants to punish others for their wrongs. My needs in return for a wrong -- which are generally the same as yours -- don't require punishment.
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  6. #16
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    Meh. Vengeance is typically more hassle than it's worth in my experience.

    And then again, I've never had anything truly horrific happen to me or any of my own as the result of another person's decisions/stupidity. So perhaps I would be vengeful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Is this cultural? Ethical? Personality related? What?
    A bit of all, I would guess. For me it's probably a combination of personality and culture.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  7. #17
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    Re: cultural component

    You know, my whole city and several neighboring towns and cities shut down for an entire day to find one man who is suspected to have set off an explosion which killed 3 and injured almost 200.

    And now he is in the hospital, in custody.

    Some people are praying for him. Some people hope he dies. Some people want him to survive so he can give more information/so he has to answer for his crimes. Most people I've encountered are glad that it's over and that they can go outside again. I think they are just grateful that he is no longer able to cause more harm.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  8. #18

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    This is interesting.

    I quite like the idea of vengeance. Some of my favorite movies are vengeance based, feel good movies like Mad Max etc. On a more realistic level vengeance seems a hassle, but isn't something I haven't indulged in. Even if only a little. I think there is a part of me that holds onto a thirst for vengeance which I find a bit of a hassle. Sometimes when I am standing around I have flashbacks to wrong doings, dumps of adrenaline in my system, short anger attacks. All fun and games.

  9. #19
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    I don't mind the eye for an eye mentality.


    I personally try to rise above hateful action, but I've never had anything all that bad happen to me or mine.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I've been exploring vengeance more in my life.

    I've generally found it to be inconvenient. That said, there does appear to be a visceral emotional payoff which, despite the fact that humans want to be reasonable and logical, I question if we can truly rise beyond. I don't think we have evolved beyond our need for symbols and rituals. Taking vengence is a typically strongly symbolic act.

    Vigilantism does give me some pause, and I think it should for any reasonable person who has carefully examined their behavior and found flaws in perception (inevitable), however the reality of life is that we either impose our irrational will on the world around us in some form or we're dead. There's no way around that. So you have to be extremely careful.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

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