Race, Gender and Identity

[Orangey]

Merely saying it affected his views and calling him a sufferer of a mental illness who's views are merely a delusion that cause paranoia are two very different things. He doesn't make any allowance for Valient to be worthy of rational discourse because his views all stem from delusion and paranoia.

I don't think it's charitable at all. I think it's very demeaning.

What's "worth" got to do with it? We're dealing with what he's said so far, and he's said things like "the Holocaust never happened." That is not a lucid thought to have, and so it is worthless to attempt to address it rationally.

I mean, why are you being the Lord Defender here? Do you sympathize with his views and therefore take a bit of personal offense at the suggestion that someone with such thoughts is not all there upstairs?

I remember YLJ, actually. He's had some doozies in the past about national socialism and blah blah blah. Cuckoo's nest...

Please. Humor me.

Nah.

 

[Valiant]

Hey [MENTION=4490]Orangey[/MENTION], if you're such a logical person...

You're welcome.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I had no idea lay people could diagnose people with mental illness over the Internet within a few posts.

There seems to be a tendency both here and throughout the western world to want to dismiss not just the ideas of racists, but racists themselves. I'm not sure there's a difference here between his viewpoint and the "nature of his thinking." If a racist's ideas are so bad (and they are mostly silly) why bother venturing into personal territory like this? Can't you just accept that this guy had a bad experience, was a legitimate victim, and that affected his views? It just seems like an attempt to delegitimize his views by attacking him personally. He's making terribly baseless arguments, but I don't see the point in trying to dismiss him as a person when his arguments are so easy to dismiss.

I'm not going to attempt to give him a diagnosis proper, I'm just noting that he certainly appears to be expressing some kind of delusional and irrational thinking that is quite plausibly also a part of some broader mental illness. I don't have to delegitimize him because I presume it is common knowledge that expressing such beliefs automatically delegitimizes him in the view of the social norm. Even he knows that, which is why is he keeps making comments about being thought a heretic.

When it comes to giving an idea consideration and being a critical thinker, here are some things to keep in mind.
You don't need to start from square one analyzing an idea you've already analyzed in the past. Valiant has said nothing here that I haven't heard before, and having dismissed it in the passt I don't need to put the effort into figuring out why I should dismiss it all over again. The other thing is that life is just too short, or some things are too urgent, to bother fully considering all of it. You have to take the risk of approximating how reasonable an idea is before even bothering with it.

 

[Ivy]

I'm going to be honest here- if a new user came on this forum and posted exclusively about this kind of white supremacy stuff, I'd assume they're a Stormfront plant (seriously, they used to send over plants all the time on INTPc, must have thought it was fertile ground for recruiting) and I'd ban them. Since this "new user" turned out to be an old user with a few thousand posts, that isn't going to happen, and I don't want to see this become a personal pile-on. But I'd still also not like to see TypoC become Stormfront Lite.

 

[Valiant]

I'm not going to attempt to give him a diagnosis proper, I'm just noting that he certainly appears to be expressing some kind of delusion and irrational thinking that is quite plausibly also a part of some broader mental illness. I don't have to delegitimize him because I presume it is common knowledge that expressing such beliefs automatically delegitimizes him in the view of the social norm. Even he knows that, which is why is he keeps making comments about being thought a heretic.

When it comes to giving an idea consideration and being a critical thinker, here are some things to keep in mind.
You don't need to start from square one analyzing an idea you've already analyzed in the past. Valiant has said nothing here that I haven't heard before, and having dismissed it in the passed I don't need to put the effort into figuring out why I should dismiss it all over again. The other thing is that life is just too short, or some things are too urgent, to bother fully considering all of it. You have to take the risk of approximating how reasonable an idea is before even bothering with it.

This from the person who had the experience of seeing some weird green ball of light a few years ago?
If I have anything, it is a better-than-average long-term memory for information.

 

[Orangey]

I'm going to be honest here- if a new user came on this forum and posted exclusively about this kind of white supremacy stuff, I'd assume they're a Stormfront plant (seriously, they used to send over plants all the time on INTPc, must have thought it was fertile ground for recruiting) and I'd ban them. Since this "new user" turned out to be an old user with a few thousand posts, that isn't going to happen, and I don't want to see this become a personal pile-on. But I'd still also not like to see TypoC become Stormfront Lite.

So, how many antisemitic YouTube videos does it take before we can officially qualify as an arm of Stormfront?

 

[Valiant]

I'm going to be honest here- if a new user came on this forum and posted exclusively about this kind of white supremacy stuff, I'd assume they're a Stormfront plant (seriously, they used to send over plants all the time on INTPc, must have thought it was fertile ground for recruiting) and I'd ban them. Since this "new user" turned out to be an old user with a few thousand posts, that isn't going to happen, and I don't want to see this become a personal pile-on. But I'd still also not like to see TypoC become Stormfront Lite.

This is after all a thread about race, gender and identity.
One I did not post.
Also, there were people in it who wanted to talk about it.
And as I understand this mighty forum is based in Baltimore, in the Land of the Free...
I thought anything was up for discussion as long as it was done politely.

Now, if you remember... It always ends like this.
This is not the first time Magic Poriferan has called me mentally ill for holding views other than his own.
Or others, for that matter.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

This from the person who had the experience of seeing some weird green ball of light a few years ago?
If I have anything, it is a better-than-average long-term memory for information.

Well, that would have been a hallucination without a delusion, which is an entirely different beast. That can even be caused by migraines. At this point I'm thinking that if I actually saw something, then it was a green firefly just out of direct site.

That kind of thing is not at all comparable I'm afraid.

 

[Ivy]

So, how many antisemitic YouTube videos does it take before we can officially qualify as an arm of Stormfront?

I don't know. It's pretty troublesome to me and I'm really trying to figure out the line between censorship of thought and preserving the forum's integrity. I will say that if you intend to post exclusively about white supremacy, Valiant, I urge you to find another forum for that.

 

[Valiant]

I don't know. It's pretty troublesome to me and I'm really trying to figure out the line between censorship of thought and preserving the forum's integrity. I will say that if you intend to post exclusively about white supremacy, Valiant, I urge you to find another forum for that.

Hey, I don't have much time for anything else right now.
When I logged on here, I had 7 notifications which I had to reply to, and a steady stream of arguments and insults since.
Do you want me to just lay flat and die?

So. Essentially, you have a forum full of liberals, libertarians and neo-conservatives.
My idea of things should somehow be illegal, though?
A representation of one, ideologically, isn't really all that much to ask for in discussions.
We exist everywhere now. If you can't convince us or yourselves that we are wrong...
Perhaps it is not the case. Perhaps we should be allowed our opinions and treated with respect.
You know. Aren't you guys supposed to like democracy?
Isn't it a bit undemocratic to not respect the views of someone else?

 

[Beorn]

What's "worth" got to do with it? We're dealing with what he's said so far, and he's said things like "the Holocaust never happened." That is not a lucid thought to have, and so it is worthless to attempt to address it rationally.

Thanks for proving my point. That's a historically incorrect statement. It can only be dealt with on a rational level. If you think it's worthless to attempt to address it rationally then you must think that he is incapable of rational thought.

I mean, why are you being the Lord Defender here? Do you sympathize with his views and therefore take a bit of personal offense at the suggestion that someone with such thoughts is not all there upstairs?

Because I believe in tolerance. Real tolerance. Not this postmodern liberal bullshit everyone-has-to-basically-believe-the-same-thing-but-we-call-it-tolerance.

 

[Totenkindly]

Getting back to the actual topic of this thread:




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I don't invest all of my identity in my race and gender, but as a few people admitted, it does have an impact on my sense of self.
I was also shaped by my experiences in life, based on my race and gender.
I think it is unrealistic to expect those things NOT to have an influence, as they also control what opportunities we receive in life.

However, as an individual, I prefer to be evaluated by my character -- my specific choices and actions in life -- not by my race or gender. And when it comes to my estimation of someone, I don't care what their gender or their race is; I will assess them by their own words and deeds as well.

My personal experience with gender and race is that I've faced social inequality, but I don't let those factors define me. I define my own personal experiences. And, in some ways, by owning my personal narratives, I have more meaning to what I want to accomplish.

I agree with the idea of a personal narrative. My gender and my race contribute to who I am and impact my narrative, but I define my own choices within those constraints and make my decisions based on the situation and truth and values I've come to believe in. No one else is responsible for my narrative; I am.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Hey, I don't have much time for anything else right now.
When I logged on here, I had 7 notifications which I had to reply to, and a steady stream of arguments and insults since.
Do you want me to just lay flat and die?

I'm not Ivy. If I were in Ivy's position, I'd say yes (figuratively speaking of course).

So. Essentially, you have a forum full of liberals, libertarians and neo-conservatives.
My idea of things should somehow be illegal, though?
A representation of one, ideologically, isn't really all that much to ask for in discussions.
We exist everywhere now. If you can't convince us or yourselves that we are wrong...
Perhaps it is not the case. Perhaps we should be allowed our opinions and treated with respect.
You know. Aren't you guys supposed to like democracy?
Isn't it a bit undemocratic to not respect the views of someone else?

I think your beliefs are inherently predicated on disrespect to large swaths of humanity.

Thanks for proving my point. That's a historically incorrect statement. It can only be dealt with on a rational level. If you think it's worthless to attempt to address it rationally then you must think that he is incapable of rational thought.

I presume she does, and so do I, at least on this topic.

 

[Ivy]

Hey, I don't have much time for anything else right now.
When I logged on here, I had 7 notifications which I had to reply to, and a steady stream of arguments and insults since.
Do you want me to just lay flat and die?

What? no. I want you to not use this forum as a platform to promote anti-semitism, racism, and white supremacy. You're not obligated to answer notifications. You can post about other topics at any time. You're in charge of the time you spend here. I've hardly seen you post about anything else since you returned, though. Even in the "what song you're currently listening to" thread, and the Joan of Arc thread, and so on. You can't be surprised that people are reacting strongly when you include Hitler in a list of heroes.

 

[Valiant]

I'm not Ivy. If I were in Ivy's position, I'd say yes (figuratively speaking of course).



I think your beliefs are inherently predicated on disrespect to large swaths of humanity.

I think every people on this planet have the fundamental right to their own country. Regardless of race or creed.
How is that disrespect? Do tell me.
How is it disrespect to talk about real biological differences?

Sounds more like criticizing "the word of God" during the time of the Inquisition.

 

[Coriolis]

I'm going to be honest here- if a new user came on this forum and posted exclusively about this kind of white supremacy stuff, I'd assume they're a Stormfront plant (seriously, they used to send over plants all the time on INTPc, must have thought it was fertile ground for recruiting) and I'd ban them. Since this "new user" turned out to be an old user with a few thousand posts, that isn't going to happen, and I don't want to see this become a personal pile-on. But I'd still also not like to see TypoC become Stormfront Lite.

Perhaps then it is time to do the opposite, and stop feeding the troll.

 

[Beorn]

I'm not going to attempt to give him a diagnosis proper, I'm just noting that he certainly appears to be expressing some kind of delusional and irrational thinking that is quite plausibly also a part of some broader mental illness. I don't have to delegitimize him because I presume it is common knowledge that expressing such beliefs automatically delegitimizes him in the view of the social norm. Even he knows that, which is why is he keeps making comments about being thought a heretic.

When it comes to giving an idea consideration and being a critical thinker, here are some things to keep in mind.
You don't need to start from square one analyzing an idea you've already analyzed in the past. Valiant has said nothing here that I haven't heard before, and having dismissed it in the passt I don't need to put the effort into figuring out why I should dismiss it all over again. The other thing is that life is just too short, or some things are too urgent, to bother fully considering all of it. You have to take the risk of approximating how reasonable an idea is before even bothering with it.

So why are you bothering to post in here at all?

Obviously I'm not interested in having a conversation with Valient about this topic so I'm just ignoring him. It seems pretty pointless to come in here just to call him a mentally ill cultist. Especially if he IS a mentally ill cultist.

 

[Valiant]

What? no. I want you to not use this forum as a platform to promote anti-semitism, racism, and white supremacy. You're not obligated to answer notifications. You can post about other topics at any time. You're in charge of the time you spend here. I've hardly seen you post about anything else since you returned, though. Even in the "what song you're currently listening to" thread, and the Joan of Arc thread, and so on. You can't be surprised that people are reacting strongly when you include Hitler in a list of heroes.

Well, isn't that more up to me, though?

If it was illegal to offend someone simply by holding views they don't like...
Why even bother with society? Someone might feel offended.

Do you realize that Hitler, to me, was indeed a hero?
Did you know that it offends me every time someone uses him as a scapegoat and a Darth Vader figure?
Does not the copious amounts of negative brainwashing about him sort of outweigh the admiration of one individual in a forum?
Or do you believe in attacking minorities, all of a sudden? To me, that sounds pretty inconsistent.

You really can't win this argument. I have had it too many times.
Sure, you can go ahead and ban me if you like, but that will reflect more upon yourself than on me.
Perhaps that's even what needs to happen for you to stop and think "what the hell am I doing?".

It's your call. Either there is free speech, or some people are more equal than others.
I am the one being subject to personal attacks here. I want to discuss things. Naturally with my own opinion.
This isn't acting class.

 

[Valiant]

So, are people who are responsible for personal attacks going to have infractions, or what?
I remember five or so years ago when I got an infraction for using the word "fag".
To this day, that is my only infraction. And that's just because Proteanmix had a bad day or something.
While that was indeed stupid of me, isn't it worse to call someone mentally ill as a way to discredit the person?
This is not the first time, either.

I know full well that there won't be any repercussions for doing that to me here, simply because you don't like me or what I think.
Just wondering, for the sake of discussion.

 

[Ivy]

I have not seen any personal attacks but it's possible I have missed them. You can report them, but keep in mind that we don't disclose what is done in response to reported threads to protect members' privacy.