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  1. #51
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Dude, there's no need to get all American History X up in here.

    Go say ten Hail Mary's, wipe your ass, and then come back when you're capable of being lucid.
    Somehow I really doubt that's what you'd say to someone who got jumped by six white men and pounded to a pulp for no reason other than skin color.
    Hypocrite.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #52
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I think I might have been the person who sparked the OP here with the conversation I had with @Wind-Up Rex here: link.

    So I'd like to pose similar questions to this group.

    I understand that your identity as seen from the outside is inescapable - and furthermore, how you are seen effects how you see yourself. This has been called "double-consciousness" and I think it's a concept that everyone who is interested in this topic should be familiar with because it's just that powerful.

    That said, a lot of the answers here seem to be addressing whether or not the identity is something that affects you. I think you'd have to say yes, unless you're oblivious to the world around you.

    But the question I'd like to pose going a little deeper is do you form your identity around simply being born X Y or Z or do you create an identity of your own through it?

    Here's what I asked Rex:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Clearly, you have no control over being born as you are in either case. So if you're saying you don't define your race concept, well, that makes sense, it's a social construct that gets applied to everyone (though I'd note that people elect to change their gender in a way that you can't do with race, seemingly, which I never thought about until now). It's something that is inherent to who you are. So like with gender female is to femininity as African-American is to "African-Americaness". You can't choose the first but don't you get to choose if/how you express it through your behavior?

    Difference between being simply in a group and expressing yourself as a member of a group (doing/action).
    She pointed out some ideas of her own, I don't want to speak for her (jump in if you want Rex), but she did note this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex
    The thing with being a woman or a minority of any sort, especially one that grew up in a predominantly white environment as I did, is that the distinction that you made is non-existent. Minority, woman or both--everything that you do and are is somehow thought to be an expression of your entire group.
    I think this is meaningful for a few reasons (if your identity is cramped from the outside can you form it on the inside? Does your experience change if you're from a hetero vs homogenous area?) but does anyone else have comments/varying experiences?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #53
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant View Post
    Extinction of species, sure. Others have done so, too, though. But yes, we've done a lot of a-bit-too-successful hunting... That's a real shame.

    But as for the other two, the Manhattan Project, wasn't it largely formed by jews? Certainly headed by one. Not white.

    As for the alleged Holocaust™... It never happened the way you think it did.
    I'm sure it didn't, if only because my own thoughts and imagination from the safety and comfort of my own life cannot adequately encompass the horror and suffering of that time. Neither the historical record, nor the accounts of Holocaust survivors (including some I have personally known), however, support any form of revisionist denial.

    As for Jews and the Manhattan project, first most Jews I know are quite white. Second, if you look at the roster of participating scientists, most were not Jewish. Third, the project was directed, promoted, and eventually implemented by politicians and military leaders, most of whom were not Jewish. Just one more thing that cannot be blamed on Jews. (Is the desire to blame others for one's own actions typical of these "superior whites", or just of you?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I understand that your identity as seen from the outside is inescapable - and furthermore, how you are seen effects how you see yourself. This has been called "double-consciousness" and I think it's a concept that everyone who is interested in this topic should be familiar with because it's just that powerful.

    That said, a lot of the answers here seem to be addressing whether or not the identity is something that affects you. I think you'd have to say yes, unless you're oblivious to the world around you.
    We are obviously affected by how other people see us, because the behavior of others is affected by their view of us. The fact that that view is often incorrect, based on mistaken assumptions or even stereotypes, does not change the fact that it influences interactions. Someone who hates blacks, for instance, may act disrespectfully toward a black person, who is then on the receiving end of the disrespect, while a white person receives better treatment.

    Note, though, the distinction between the reality of the person and the impression others have of them. A black person, for instance, can be lazy, uneducated, and uncultured, just like the stereotypes; or he/she can be well-educated, industrious and successful. Which they are is independent of other people's view of them in a given encounter. If the majority of interpersonal encounters, however, expose a person to a certain view of them, they can internalize that view and start to live up (or down) to it. This gets into the next question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    But the question I'd like to pose going a little deeper is do you form your identity around simply being born X Y or Z or do you create an identity of your own through it?
    Everything in our makeup and environment affects our identity: gender, race/culture, physical attributes, upbringing, even where we live. This is the hand we are dealt; it is up to us how to play it. People often don't realize that they can draw additional cards, or even discard some. They mistake a 3 for a Queen, or don't understand whether Ace is high or low, or don't know what to do with a wildcard. In real terms, this translates into failing to understand and develop one's strengths and talents, remaining unaware of the variety of available choices, and accepting to be constrained by limitations that are not real. All this relates to whether one has an internal or external locus of control.

    As for myself, I did not so much create my own identity as allow it to develop on its own, periodically clearing away any weeds, pests, brambles, or trash that threatened to stunt or constrain it. I was born many things, but it quickly became apparent to me which are relevant and useful in reaching my goals, and which are relatively inconsequential.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #54
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant View Post
    It ain't much use if you get jumped by 6 well-muscled african men without warning.
    I've done full-contact martial arts for six years. What was I supposed to do, hit them first?
    I got jumped and they heaped on top of me. Beating, kicking, wrestling, twisting, screaming nasty things at me.
    Just because they hate white people.
    I hate to piss in your cornflakes, but you should probably seek a therapist.

  5. #55
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I'm sure it didn't, if only because my own thoughts and imagination from the safety and comfort of my own life cannot adequately encompass the horror and suffering of that time. Neither the historical record, nor the accounts of Holocaust survivors (including some I have personally known), however, support any form of revisionist denial.

    As for Jews and the Manhattan project, first most Jews I know are quite white. Second, if you look at the roster of participating scientists, most were not Jewish. Third, the project was directed, promoted, and eventually implemented by politicians and military leaders, most of whom were not Jewish. Just one more thing that cannot be blamed on Jews. (Is the desire to blame others for one's own actions typical of these "superior whites", or just of you?)
    There are no physical evidence of the Holocaust that has not been refuted.
    If a bunch of zionist lizards tell me something, I do not take it for proof.
    Who stood to gain? They did. Follow the money.

    As for the second part, one word: Einstein.
    He knew full well what he was doing. I am not saying he wasn't brilliant, because he was.
    Secondly, jews consider themselves a race of their own, and they are de facto mixed race of either turkic or semitic origin (ashkenazi jews = turkic, others mostly semitic).
    Just a quick googling of that. Here's one article about it from the Jerusalem Post. There are studies done at the New York University that prove them to be unique.
    http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/Jew...people-or-race

    I always strive to blame the right person for something.
    If I have done something, I accept blame.
    As we say in Swedish: "rätt ska vara rätt". "Right shall be right".
    One thing I have always blamed white people for is alcohol abuse.
    That one is our own damn fault, and one of the biggest.
    Alcohol needs to go away, it is the cause of so much bad things in the world.

    World wars, though? Atom bombs?
    Guilt-tripping my people out of billions of dollars, our own identity, pushing tens of millions of third-worlders into my beloved Europe?
    Trying to eradicate white people from the face of this earth?
    That agenda is not to blame on whites, we are the victims thereof.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  6. #56
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I hate to piss in your cornflakes, but you should probably seek a therapist.
    No thanks, I much prefer to clean up my country instead of tranquilizing myself into oblivion.
    The whole thing made me wake up completely, there is nothing negative about that.
    This mess needs to be handled.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  7. #57
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    This thread brings to mind a time when I was 17. A very caucasian, very alone runaway in a big city - in the very poor end of town, no less.
    Mostly hispanic residents, a lot of gangs. Shops with Spanish as the primary language on the signs. Very foreign to someone like me, obviously. People I know may describe it as a "dangerous, bad area."

    Everyone was actually very polite to me, when I ventured out for my basic needs.

    Ironically, my one brush with danger wasn't with anyone of color, but with a white man in his 40s, who appeared as benign as a math teacher.
    Creep chased me in his car for several blocks and tried to force me inside.

    Nearly every female I know who's been victimized in some way like this more often than not, had such encounters with primarily white men.


    I'm not saying racism on either side doesn't exist- when we lived in the south, my brother was actually beaten up in junior high, on his bus, by some African American boys who used their race as a reason to bully others. "Get out of that seat, white boy, you owe us." My brother made a remark about how his ancestors freed them. This led to a 3:1 fistfight, recorded by the camera on the bus. The African American principal did not suspend the 3 boys who initiated the fight, but he did suspend my brother from riding the bus for the remainder of the year "for making racist remarks." It was only until my mother threatened legal action that he rescinded.


    I recall losing a white friend nearby my house there, when her mother found out we'd let the black kids down the street from us swim in our pool.
    It can go both ways.

    And the point is.. both are ignorant, and blatantly retarded. How this can still be a question in anyone's mind nowadays is baffling, to me.
    I'd be interested in seeing well-documented/supported statistics that place the 'blame' all on non-white people.


    We're all human.. what else is there? Why do you even need anything else?
    It's pathetic that this is even an issue at all, for some people.

    I understand wanting more benefits for the elderly in your country vs more funding going to immigrants, things like that. Trying to seek balance and fairness in some way, for natural citizens. I realize policies vary from place to place in that regard. But that's got nothing to do with color. To assume so isn't going to really help your cause- it's just a terribly narrow, vapid way of examining or attempting to categorize things. It reeks of desperation for a simple answer and someone to blame, in hopes for a simple fix. In misguided hopes for some sense of control, and security in one's own identity. It's an embarrassment to rational thought.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

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    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  8. #58
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I hate to piss in your cornflakes, but you should probably seek a therapist.
    More a less. Valiant has latched onto a delusion with enough conviction to then create paranoia. It's mental illness, and one of the saddest things is just how generic and textbook it is. Almost a grotesque.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #59
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    So I'd like to pose similar questions to this group.

    I understand that your identity as seen from the outside is inescapable - and furthermore, how you are seen effects how you see yourself. This has been called "double-consciousness" and I think it's a concept that everyone who is interested in this topic should be familiar with because it's just that powerful.

    That said, a lot of the answers here seem to be addressing whether or not the identity is something that affects you. I think you'd have to say yes, unless you're oblivious to the world around you.

    But the question I'd like to pose going a little deeper is do you form your identity around simply being born X Y or Z or do you create an identity of your own through it?
    I've chipped away at aspects of how I understand my identity for years. The conceptual conclusion I've been left with is that I am simply a "will" or "motive". I expect all living things to possess this intrinsic property. It seems like the actual relevance of X, Y, Z is more like muscle memory about what I'm most comfortable doing- like a ritual, rather than a way of discerning the properties of the world around me.

  10. #60
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    More a less. Valiant has latched onto a delusion with enough conviction to then create paranoia. It's mental illness, and one of the saddest things is just how generic and textbook it is. Almost a grotesque.
    This is just a really dangerous remark. Ironically referring to someone with differing viewpoints from you as mentally ill is just an excuse to treat them differently. I don't care how ridiculous their viewpoint seems.

    Where's all that tolerance I keep hearing about?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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