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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The problem isn't what is in the Bible. It is what people do with it.
    C'mon it is a monstrous book. In the Old Testament God orders genocide and murder. And in the Old Testament God started the three Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, by ordering Abraham to tie up his son and slaughter him.

    And not content with that, in the New Testament, in order to forgive us, God tortured this own son to death.

    And there can be no doubt the Bible supported institutional slavery.

    Naturally this causes cognitive dissonance in believers and causes them emotional pain.

  2. #262
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Because you cannot, absolutely cannot, assign psychosis to anyone. It can even be difficult for psychologists sometimes to tell the difference between bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, just as an example.
    I'm not expecting my claim to hold up in court or something. It's a supposition, and one that does involve both my impression of him and my idea of mental illness (although my idea of mental illness is informed by literature on the subject).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I know because I think I've spent significantly more time studying mental illness than yourself. He actually isn't showing symptoms of schizophrenia. You could say his intensity is due to bipolar mania, but it could just as easily not.
    How on earth do you know that you've spent more time studying mental illness than me? Have you witnessed every second of my life? And secondly, why should I care when you apparently don't think it's relevant that I've probably studied sociology more than you? What's the difference?

    I've never even used the word schizophrenia in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Other people in this thread aren't terribly good at it either. I've actually seen people on this forum call me a narcissist, not even realizing that narcissists lack empathy, and I've been thoroughly psychoanalyzed; no traces of narcissism.
    But of course you're good at it. We have no history on you, no one vouching for you, and no credentials from you, but we should just take your word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    There's absolutely no academic basis for you calling someone mentally ill because they embrace a radically different value system than yourself. It would be like you calling Mormons, Quakers, and Hare Krishnas mentally ill.

    Good luck with that. Really.
    I'm not calling him mentally ill because he has a radically different value system from myself (assuming I know what you mean by value system). I'm calling him mentally ill because his grasp on facts seems to be detached from reality at almost every level, and his attitude is one of unfounded threat (which could quite easily become real threat to other people some day). Neither of those things are really a value issue.

    There is arguably some basis for calling someone mentally ill based on values, but it's controversial. Then again, what isn't in psychology?

    Why don't you define mental illness, since you are apparently such an authority on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    White nationalism isn't a cult. LOL. It's not any more of a cult than being an Objectivist or a Tea Partier or believing in Occupy Wall Street is a cult.

    Please look up signs of a cult. Thanks.

    I'm taking you less and less seriously by the second. Your baby ISFJ is showing.
    Again, you are directing me to view information I already have. I kind of anticipated this, actually. When I first made the comparison to a cult, I noted that hardly anyone ever seems to call these supremacist circles cults, but I think they function much like one. Anyhow, in the particular case you're quoting here, it was an analogy. Maybe I should stop attempting analogies with you.

    Finally, if you're going to berate me for having such an improper understanding of the psychiatric field, you really shouldn't keep returning to a pop-psychology scheme that few psychiatrists or psychologists take seriously, such as the MBTI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am privy to knowledge you are not. You've read about it in books and judged it by your own (apparently faulty and biased) standards, while I've actually spent a great deal of time actually conversing with these people, trying to see their point of view, and studying the resurgence of nationalism in general.
    Again, you have no way of knowing this about me. You don't know everything I know, and you have at least some basis for thinking that I might know more about this topic than any random joe (if I'm to be believed) Furthermore, you can't really be judging your interactions with people by any less of a standard than by which I read a book. We all judge things by standards. And it's ridiculous and insulting if you think I've not considered trying to see someone else's point of view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am privy to information because I've actually talked to the people without treating them like psychotics, I've attempted to compare the sociological phenomenon to civilizations in recent history (very recent history, included, nationalism was popular until about mid-20th century) and I think just studied the subject more specifically and sympathetically than yourself.
    You are pulling all of this out of your ass. You have no ability to compare this to me. And again, I never said Valiant was psychotic, I in fact said I thought he wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I've had to deal with people like you before.
    This is already my signal that you're about to say something horribly inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    One INTP I know has a PhD in Philosophy, specialization in Kant, and he's very uber-brainwashed extremist liberal, he has very intense Fe ethics that mirror the most extremist forms of multi-cultural liberalism, and I also don't take his opinion on the matter very seriously; just because you've gone to graduate school doesn't mean you're equipped to deal with every subject, especially a subject that clearly causes you to have a deep and irrational emotional response.
    Well, I don't major in philosophy, dislike Kant, wouldn't call myself an extremist liberal or possibly a liberal at all, and have never been that gung-ho about the whole pluralism identity politics thing, so I'm not exactly sure which part of this is supposed to sound like me. But here's my response to what you seem to be saying about me.

    You're right that no level of formal education, no matter how high, automatically means someone understands something, and certainly not that they must be right. But it should suggest to you that I've already come across and studied most of the facts and concepts you keep telling me about as if I've never heard of them before. And while something like formal education may not be everything, it's something, and you have nothing. You're making an appeal to ethos, but there is nothing to tell me why your ethos is worth anything. You're really making the same kind of claim as "I'm right because I have a PhD", you just don't even have a credential to back it up. You just have knowledge somehow and we're supposed to believe it, and then take that to mean you must be right. It's almost as bad as the last thing you said.

    You, of all people, are in no position to lecture other people about doing analysis without being emotionally compromised. I'd put you somewhere near the bottom of the list of people who actively post on this forum. You couldn't control your hysterics if we were discussing whether or not twinkies or ding dongs are better. Even if you were a cool headed, unbiased person, your comment doesn't actually carry much weight. You could have just called me a big fat head and it would have been about the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    That's nice. Not that many people are "mentally ill." Don't over assign mental illness to people. It leads to a huge misunderstanding of basic human motives.
    I don't think I'm over-assigning mental illness. I actually think it is over-assigned in this country. But singling out the people who are dedicated to these forums is a drop in the bucket compared to all the people that get some kind of clinical diagnosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Hitler was mentally ill. But the entire country of Germany was anti-Semitic at the time. They weren't all mentally ill. Stop generalizing so much, it's really silly.
    I recall one of Hitler's chief propagandists saying that Germany was anti-semitic, but no more or even less than other European countries. It was up to them to make Germany the most anti-semitic after Hitler took control.

    Anyhow, on the point of generalization, I was saying that your standards seem to apply to Hitler, who is clearly mentally ill, therefore they do not do a sufficient job of refuting that such thinking is a form of mental illness. See the difference there? I didn't say "everyone who shares X trait with Hitler is insane", I said "since Hitler is mentally ill, and has Y traits, Y traits must not refute mental illness" where Y traits were the ones you used as reasons for Valiant not being mentally ill. In fact, the popularity of antisemitism at the time just fits into my point that Hitler's conditions were the same as the ones you attributed to Valiant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    And I'm saying you aren't at all qualified to diagnose it. You don't seem to have an especially adept understanding of the human mind, though I admit you're quite good with political systems.
    I have no reason to consider your opinion on this authoritative. That's the thing we keep coming back to. This debate should have centered on the soundness of our arguments, but you've instead decided that it should be about your claim to having more knowledge than me. You've largely avoided making any arguments relevant to the central dispute (I'll get to that later). It's a bad angle to take, because I neither know that you know more than me, nor do I believe more factual knowledge would automatically make your right anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If he had a psychotic break with reality, his behavior wouldn't follow rationally consistent patterns with his personality.
    I didn't call him psychotic, in fact I said I didn't think he was. How many times do you want me to say that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Have a day, Professor Killjoy.
    And then of course you come back and make another post about this.

    Before I respond to that second post, I wanted to get back to the central dispute, as promised. The dispute is why the traits you've attributed to Valiant's Euro-supremacism must refute his mental illness. I do not deny that most of the qualities you attributed to these groups are accurately attributable, I deny that they clear someone of mental illness. You have never explained to me why they clear someone of mental illness, or in other words how they are incompatible with the definition of mental illness.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #263
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    In fact I'd like to be more specific about this to help you out @Magic Poriferan.

    If something related to white nationalism is a cult, it would be like Neo-Nazi skinheads. That's a cult. They're very exclusive, live together, and often promote violence and actual hatred.

    In fact calling YLJ a "white nationalist" is probably incorrect, as he probably considers himself a nationalist specifically of his own country, which most European nationalism takes the form of each country striving to preserve its own country's traditions.

    "White" is more of an American construct than a European one, because Spaniards, Southern Italians and Greeks are often darker skinned, yet they still have the bone structure and over-all traits of Caucasians.

    When people call themselves white nationalists, it usually refers to some kind of global ideal of preserving things like white skin, blue eyes, blonde hair, and red hair; also straight light brown hair and things associated with European groups racially.

    European preservationists are usually more concerned with preserving European culture in the face of mass immigration in Europe, and in some parts of the U.S...often these people aren't at all concerned with skin color or with hating other races in the slightest, but simply with European history and culture, and the potentially marginalizing of people of European descent because of over-zealous "white people are evil" types of liberals. And yes, the "white people are evil" liberals do exist, and that isn't any more healthy than demonizing any other race or culture; as a matter of fact, the Japanese and the Jews have a rich history of being racists, and the Ottoman Empire in Central Asia was the world power long before Western European peoples. There's nothing inherent about European or "white" people that makes them "evil" or any more prone to racism; racism is a human trait that grows out of in-group fears, spanning back to times when people really did have to protect their tribes and lands from warring others.

    YLJ seems to be of the more racist variety, and he seems quite taken with the mythology of his culture; neither of these things are insane. Also, saying he's going to marry a European woman and have a lot of white babies and preserve his own culture is in no way "insane." You'll meet people from cultures all over the world who say things like this. I have Asian friends whose parents strongly encourage them to marry other Asians, for example.
    That entire chunk was more a less a tutorial on things I already know, which you should have figured I already knew. I will repeat it as many times as I have to; our disagreement doesn't have to do with you knowing more than me, it has to do with the nature of our arguments, not a difference in knowledge. If you could just get around to answering my questions, instead of trying to convince me you know more than me, we might get somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If YLJ starts to talk about hurting or killing people of other races, then I'll become concerned that he's joined some kind of sick cult; but even then, he may not be mentally ill, but just a morally reprehensible individual.
    A morally reprehensible person? What exactly is that? It doesn't seem like a particularly scientific concept. That just strikes me as an empty answer. A non-answer. I never just leave it at "oh, he's evil". Is it possible to be what we'd call evil without being mentally ill? There's actually a really interesting discussion there, but one I presumably can't have with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    There are forms of human paranoia that are not mentally ill; I believe the tendency to be territorial is completely natural, and you see it more in cultures where people value family territory over large scale authority systems, such as "honor cultures."
    Paranoia like the kind you'd find in someone with Paranoid Personality Disorder does not actually start with a heightened sense of threat, it starts with an inability to admit that ones' belief is mistaken. The inability to reconcile the unchangeable belief with a social consensus that it is false results in the imagining of a vast conspiracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Calling something mentally ill because you don't like it or don't understand it or find it morally repugnant is simply incorrect.
    I wonder if you'll ever figure out that I'm not doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I have long been on a mission to understand why Objectivists believe as they do, why Southern conservative evangelical Republicans believe as they do, and by the same token, have strived to understand the resurgence in European nationalism. Republicans and nationalists tend to share a common bond, and that is essentially fear of their land and traditions being eroded, which isn't an "insane" fear, it's just a different way of seeing the world.

    Objectivists on the other hand seem to be more motivated by real selfishness and greed, and I think that's probably the case in extreme forms of white nationalism or neo-Nazi racism, in which case I find them both morally reprehensible.
    One, you are again acting as if you have to introduce the concept of multiple points of view to me, which is either enormously conceited or deeply under-appreciative of me, or both. Two, I can basically some up every belief system as just a different way of seeing the world. They all are, so it's tautological, which makes it a useless thing to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I also don't take Nico's opinion of YLJ very seriously, as he actually believed I'm so stupid or crazy that I actually believe that my yoga instructors are the only sane people I know.

    So overall, I don't feel I'm dealing with a very reliable group of analysts here.
    It's a good thing there's no reason for anyone to use you as their yardstick.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #264
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    C'mon it is a monstrous book. In the Old Testament God orders genocide and murder. And in the Old Testament God started the three Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, by ordering Abraham to tie up his son and slaughter him.

    And not content with that, in the New Testament, in order to forgive us, God tortured this own son to death.

    And there can be no doubt the Bible supported institutional slavery.

    Naturally this causes cognitive dissonance in believers and causes them emotional pain.
    In the Lord of the Rings trilogy, there is brainwashing/bewitching, destruction of the environment, suicide missions, controlled breeding of conscience-less warriors, conscription of the undead, betrayal, killing in many violent forms, and a father who tries to burn his son alive. The difference is that people realize this is fiction, and do not claim it as divine truth, worship its heroes, or use it as an example for daily living.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #265
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In the Lord of the Rings trilogy, there is brainwashing/bewitching, destruction of the environment, suicide missions, controlled breeding of conscience-less warriors, conscription of the undead, betrayal, killing in many violent forms, and a father who tries to burn his son alive. The difference is that people realize this is fiction, and do not claim it as divine truth, worship its heroes, or use it as an example for daily living.
    Yes, "Lord of the Rings", is fiction and how it resonates with our emotional history. We revel in it because it reveals the emotions we repress.

    History is a nightmare from which we are trying to awake.

  6. #266
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In the Lord of the Rings trilogy, there is brainwashing/bewitching, destruction of the environment, suicide missions, controlled breeding of conscience-less warriors, conscription of the undead, betrayal, killing in many violent forms, and a father who tries to burn his son alive. The difference is that people realize this is fiction, and do not claim it as divine truth, worship its heroes, or use it as an example for daily living.
    The problem is that Victor seems to not have the most basic of literary interpretation skills which is the ability to determine when a text describes something and when a text prescribes something. Because of that he has one of the most simplistic views of the bible I have ever encountered.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #267
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In the Lord of the Rings trilogy, there is brainwashing/bewitching, destruction of the environment, suicide missions, controlled breeding of conscience-less warriors, conscription of the undead, betrayal, killing in many violent forms, and a father who tries to burn his son alive. The difference is that people realize this is fiction, and do not claim it as divine truth, worship its heroes, or use it as an example for daily living.
    The problem is that Victor seems to not have the most basic of literary interpretation skills which is the ability to determine when a text describes something and when a text prescribes something. Because of that he has one of the most simplistic views of the bible I have ever encountered.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The problem is that Victor seems to not have the most basic of literary interpretation skills which is the ability to determine when a text describes something and when a text prescribes something. Because of that he has one of the most simplistic views of the bible I have ever encountered.
    It's amazing - one after another of you comes on here and rather than criticising my ideas, you criticise me.

    Critical thinking criticises ideas not persons.

    Criticising persons rather than ideas is a moral failure - the worst kind of failure.

  9. #269
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The problem is that Victor seems to not have the most basic of literary interpretation skills which is the ability to determine when a text describes something and when a text prescribes something. Because of that he has one of the most simplistic views of the bible I have ever encountered.
    But people decide whether a text is to be prescriptive, or simply descriptive. A good illustration is the old (original) Star Trek episode, "A Piece of the Action" in which an entire society is ordered around the book "Chicago Mobs of the 20's", a volume obviously intended to be a historical account.



    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's amazing - one after another of you comes on here and rather than criticising my ideas, you criticise me.

    Critical thinking criticises ideas not persons.

    Criticising persons rather than ideas is a moral failure - the worst kind of failure.
    I am criticising the idea that every book is meant to be prescriptive, to use Beorn's terminology. Do you consider this idea synonymous with yourself?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #270
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's amazing - one after another of you comes on here and rather than criticising my ideas, you criticise me.

    Critical thinking criticises ideas not persons.

    Criticising persons rather than ideas is a moral failure - the worst kind of failure.
    I'm criticizing you as a person because we've had this discussion a million times and I know you won't listen to reason, but will just keep moving the target. Your actions make it hard for me to believe you are here to honestly engage in argument and engage in conversation, but rather just want To push an agenda. I have an agenda as well, but I'm also here to learn and think through things. I think I come off as inconsistent some times (like in this thread) because I'm still trying to think through a challenging issue and mold my views to make them more consistent. You on the other hand are completely consistent and completely predictable.

    Why don't you switch things up sometime just for kicks? I was able to make a positive quote from Hitchens in this very thread.

    Instead of complaining about Abraham's non-sacrifice of Isaac you could praise how God protected and provided for Abraham's illegitimate baby when he was going to die in the wilderness.

    Oh wait, on second thought asking you to praise the salvation of the father of the Arab nation is probably asking too much, huh?


    (Yes, Yes, I see there is a bit of irony in my treatment of Victor and some people's treatment of Valiant it's just a matter of how patient someone is willing to be I suppose.)
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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