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  1. #191
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I don't think I do.

    Psychiatrists are trained to tell the difference between a person with a specific deranged delusion, and someone who merely is very religious and believes in assorted mythology.

    And you talking about serial killer delusions in conjunction with white supremacy is actually not a good analogy.
    So, as someone who isn't a trained psychiatrist, should I consider the serial killers claims possibly reasonable? I mean, at least until I get a trained psychiatrist in to assess the situation.

    You don't understand because you are too caught up on the comparison between Valiant and someone being a serial killer, or psychotic. That's not really the point, and you especially have to understand it in the context of my exchange with Beorn. The point was trying to see just how far Beorn takes his notion of being "tolerant" to someone else's beliefs. The guy could have been psychotic or not, he could have been a serially killer or a graffiti artist. The question is, were the beliefs he asserted reasonable enough to even bother considering?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It seems more charitable than the alternative conclusions.

    In all seriousness, though, I don't think anybody is seriously trying to diagnose this person with a mental illness. That would be an insult to the mentally ill.





    Well, nobody said he was psychotic specifically. In all fairness, though, I do think that a lot of the illucid things that he's written in this thread are signs of disordered thinking, which is usually a symptom of mental illness. But I wasn't even originally trying to go that far.

    I'm not sure that I see where you're going with this, though. Are you saying that being mentally ill is worse than choosing to be an out and out racist (and espousing/evangelizing the harmful views that come with such a worldview?) Because to me it seems like it would be better to be psychotic (or have the excuse of being cray cray) than to be a completely normal person with serious intellectual and moral deficiencies.
    I'm not speaking in terms of better or worse, I am merely pointing out that a person having a certain belief system is not the same as them being mentally ill. At all.

    I think it's important for intelligent, educated people to be able to tell the difference between a mentally ill person and someone who just has what could objectively be called an alternative belief system, stemming from racial pride, which is a human trait as old as dirt, it's linked to tribalism.

    It's like when I see people call religious behavior or belief in god mentally ill or a delusion.

    Whether it's ethically "good" or "bad" is immaterial. In some cultures, racial pride is considered normal and a very high form morality.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So, as someone who isn't a trained psychiatrist, should I consider the serial killers claims possibly reasonable? I mean, at least until I get a trained psychiatrist in to assess the situation.

    You don't understand because you are too caught up on the comparison between Valiant and someone being a serial killer, or psychotic. That's not really the point, and you especially have to understand it in the context of my exchange with Beorn. The point was trying to see just how far Beorn takes his notion of being "tolerant" to someone else's beliefs. The guy could have been psychotic or not, he could have been a serially killer or a graffiti artist. The question is, were the beliefs he asserted reasonable enough to even bother considering?
    You're not getting my point at all, either, apparently.

    I'm not defending @Valiant's beliefs out of some preachy attitude toward ethical tolerance.

    I am asking you to use your N and T functions instead of your S an F ones, which is ironic seeing as that I am the ISFP and you are the INTP.

    I am asking you to use perspective to see this as an objective, categorical THING, instead of something you're judging by your personal ethics.

  4. #194
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You're not getting my point at all, either, apparently.

    I'm not defending @Valiant's beliefs out of some preachy attitude toward ethical tolerance.

    I am asking you to use your N and T functions instead of your S an F ones, which is ironic seeing as that I am the ISFP and you are the INTP.

    I am asking you to use perspective to see this as an objective, categorical THING, instead of something you're judging by your personal ethics.
    Ethics? Regardless of whether or not he's good or bad, regardless of whether or not he's doing harm, he is showing a particular disregard for evidence both empirical and rational, and standing resolute on baseless assumption that then further encourage him to add on more delusions. His infallibility, his suspicion of conspiracy, his sense of surrounding threat, etc... Like I said, it's freaking textbook. I don't think he's psychotic by the way, as that would have little to do with the sort of things he's saying. He is paranoid in some fashion, though the root of that paranoia is uncertain.

    His accounts of history, ranging from Europeans inventing civilization to the holocaust not happening, are not values I don't share, they are rejections of thoroughly established facts and accepted parts of the cultural norm he was presumably informed of a very long time ago. His rejection of it is bizarre and mostly attributable to those errors of thinking I described above.
    Last edited by Magic Poriferan; 04-06-2013 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Well, that missing "don't" would explain a lot, not that it amounts to much defense for Marm at this point...
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ethics? Regardless of whether or not he's good or bad, regardless of whether or not he's doing harm, he is showing a particular disregard for evidence both empirical and rational, and standing resolute on baseless assumption that then further encourage him to add on more delusions. His infallibility, his suspicion of conspiracy, his sense of surrounding threat, etc... Like I said, it's freaking textbook. I think he's psychotic by the way, as that would have little to do with the sort of things he's saying. He is paranoid in some fashion, though the root of that paranoia is uncertain.
    Well let me enlighten you. It stems from what white nationalists see as favoritism toward minorities, but also the actual physically diminishing numbers of blondes and redheads in the world, and a trend in mainland Europe toward multi-culturalism instead of carefully preserving long-held European traditions, as well as mass immigration; hard core white nationalists and the most racially conscious preservationist (versus culturally conscious, which is why I had any interest in the topic, because of culture and history) urge young whites to reproduce to create more people of caucasion descent, since the birth rates of whites have steadily dropped whilst non-white birth rates are increasing.

    Your ignorance of the topic and the subsequent movement doesn't mean his paranoia is inexplicable or unique to him; quite the contrary.

    His accounts of history, ranging from Europeans inventing civilization to the holocaust not happening, are not values I don't share, they are rejections of thoroughly established facts and accepted parts of the cultural norm he was presumably informed of a very long time ago. His rejection of it is bizarre and mostly attributable to those errors of thinking I described above.
    Holocaust denying is a huge thing, you see it on the Internet everywhere, just like Objectivism or believing in aliens. That makes him eccentric, perhaps even selective about facts, but not necessarily insane.

  6. #196
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Well let me enlighten you. It stems from what white nationalists see as favoritism toward minorities, but also the actual physically diminishing numbers of blondes and redheads in the world, and a trend in mainland Europe toward multi-culturalism instead of carefully preserving long-held European traditions, as well as mass immigration; hard core white nationalists and the most racially conscious preservationist (versus culturally conscious, which is why I had any interest in the topic, because of culture and history) urge young whites to reproduce to create more people of caucasion descent, since the birth rates of whites have steadily dropped whilst non-white birth rates are increasing.

    Your ignorance of the topic and the subsequent movement doesn't mean his paranoia is inexplicable or unique to him; quite the contrary.
    I'm not ignorant of the topic and you didn't tell me anything I didn't know. As if it wouldn't be obvious that I am would know about something like this in the first place, I also happened to do a piece on the British National Party for one of my sociology courses. The key element of your statement is the phrase "what white nationalists see". Yes, that's what they see. It doesn't seem to be how most people see it. At any rate, none of this stuff actually gets to the most unreasonable elements of what he's saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Holocaust denying is a huge thing, you see it on the Internet everywhere, just like Objectivism or believing in aliens. That makes him eccentric, perhaps even selective about facts, but not necessarily insane.
    Let's get two things straight. One is that holocaust denying isn't really a huge thing compared to people who believe the holocaust happened. It's actually quite fringe when seen in that light. The second thing is that some mutually attracting sub-culture of believers doesn't make an idea any less ridiculous, and it doesn't make the kind of thinking it requires to be convinced of it any healthier.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #197
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    Also, let it be known that Ni types are frequently known for their suspicion and questioning of commonly-held "facts"...things that are in actuality unprovable by Se, and they don't trust Si stores of knowledge as being reliable (the adage that history is a myth) ...and sure it might point to inferior Ni or an Ni/Ji loop in most cases...I think @Valiant is actually probably an ESTP and not an ENTJ...which serves to explain why someone would, in fact, deny the halocaust did happen.

    Besides, when people are faced with things like mass immigration and directly perceived "threats" to their tribal beliefs or ways, they often react with a kind of defensive mechanism. Jung believed that people needed a coherent cultural mythology to even stay sane. I saw an incredible argument by a Norwegian liberal former multi-culturalist on why Russian nationalism is actually healthy because of the way Russian people were robbed of their culture by the Soviets.

    If you want to know what my ETHICAL reaction was to YLJ, then you can flip a few pages back and see where I mocked him and called him pathetic, but that's just my personal ethical view; in the grand scheme of things, I know on a factual, rational level that white nationalism exists, and why, and even why someone could respond as he has given a particular set of circumstances.

    I mean saying all white nationalists are insane is like saying everyone who belongs to the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street is insane.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not ignorant of the topic and you didn't tell me anything I didn't know. As if it wouldn't be obvious that I am would know about something like this in the first place, I also happened to do a piece on the British National Party for one of my sociology courses. The key element of your statement is the phrase "what white nationalists see". Yes, that's what they see. It doesn't seem to be how most people see it. At any rate, none of this stuff actually gets to the most unreasonable elements of what he's saying.
    Yes, but you have to have a little more perspective on WHY white nationalists see as they do, if you aren't just going to declare them crazy, which is frankly immature.

    They aren't "crazy."

    They're actually having a very predictable, tribal reaction to globalization and mass immigration in their countries.

    The men in particular feel threatened, which is historically speaking, WHY men go to war...to protect their own KIND, whether it be their family, tribe, race, or country.

    Men are more territorial than women. That's why women were frequently used as "peace weavers" in earlier times, they could be married off to leaders of near-enemy countries.

    You can condemn it all you want, but unless you attempt to understand WHY they think as they do, and just insist on INCORRECTLY calling them mentally ill, I'm going to keep correcting you.




    Let's get two things straight. One is that holocaust denying isn't really a huge thing compared to people who believe the holocaust happened. It's actually quite fringe when seen in that light. The second thing is that some mutually attracting sub-culture of believers doesn't make an idea any less ridiculous, and it doesn't make the kind of thinking it requires to be convinced of it any healthier.

  9. #199
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Also, let it be known that Ni types are frequently known for their suspicion and questioning of commonly-held "facts"...things that are in actuality unprovable by Se, and they don't trust Si stores of knowledge as being reliable (the adage that history is a myth) ...and sure it might point to inferior Ni or an Ni/Ji loop in most cases...I think @Valiant is actually probably an ESTP and not an ENTJ...which serves to explain why someone would, in fact, deny the halocaust did happen.
    I don't care about cognitive process analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Besides, when people are faced with things like mass immigration and directly perceived "threats" to their tribal beliefs or ways, they often react with a kind of defensive mechanism. Jung believed that people needed a coherent cultural mythology to even stay sane.
    Jung might not be the best guy to cite here, given some of his history on the topic of nationalism and Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I saw an incredible argument by a Norwegian liberal former multi-culturalist on why Russian nationalism is actually healthy because of the way Russian people were robbed of their culture by the Soviets.
    It's funny thing, but I find liberal pluralists frequently wind up at some point where they are defending some nationalists somewhere. I could go on about that all day, but I think that's another topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If you want to know what my ETHICAL reaction was to YLJ, then you can flip a few pages back and see where I mocked him and called him pathetic, but that's just my personal ethical view; in the grand scheme of things, I know on a factual, rational level that white nationalism exists, and why, and even why someone could respond as he has given a particular set of circumstances.
    Acknowledging those things doesn't mean the people in question aren't mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I mean saying all white nationalists are insane is like saying everyone who belongs to the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street is insane.
    Well, there's really more to it than just being a white nationalist. It's specifically this habit of revising pretty much all accepted understanding of history and a great deal of anthropological science, too, and the kind of thinking we can presume goes along with that and certainly appeared to while he was posting on this site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    You can condemn it all you want, but unless you attempt to understand WHY they think as they do, and just insist on INCORRECTLY calling them mentally ill, I'm going to keep correcting you.
    Heh. You want to talk about psychiatry? Calling a person mentally ill should not be conflated with making no attempt to understand their thinking.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #200
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    You're so locked into your own paradigm you can't see what I'm saying.

    You should spend some time on white nationalist forums without having a knee jerk reaction to it.

    It's really a growth experience to spend a lot of time around people who fiercely disgust you morally, or who live a way you don't understand.

    I'm surprised with you being a Ti rather than Fi type that you're even like this, but it may be a result of Ji/Si.

    You can only understand the underpinnings of things you disagree with if you see them for what they actually are UNDERNEATH.

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