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  1. #161
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I wouldn't call myself a subjectivist, I think objective truth can be grasped, but people don't realize that it's faith along with rationality that enables them to grasp objective truth.
    Faith is an expedient that is unfortunately sometimes necessary. But I prefer minimizing it and maximizing inferable knowledge where feasible.

    I think when someone attempts to grasp the truth from faith, the basically just function as a subjectivist, because faith is removed from virtually any objective evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I don't see what your example has to do with anything, but I'll answer anyway. It sounds as if his delusion only affected why he was doing something and not what he was doing. He's still guilty of murder because he intended to kill someone. If he had thought the gun was a magic squirt gun that shot rainbows that made people fall in love then he might not have had the requisite intent to commit murder.
    If I were to consider this man's beliefs so clearly removed from the facts that I would just assert he is crazy and his ideas not worth giving serious consideration (if any), would that be intolerant of me?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #162
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    This...

    And the objection to pondering Valiants mental condition on the basis that doing so would be "othering" or "dehumanizing" him.

    Very postmodern.

    I don't think Pseudo is showing an over-appreciation for rationalization. Our inability to hold opinions we do not believe is simply the nature of the beast, and it follows that we are not entitled to that ability either, even in a sense of moral absolutism. If one is to play the devil's advocate, a measure of distance must come between one's actual stance and the lie they are pushing. The whole activity comprises the totality of one's relationship the the truth, which is dynamic, but remains the same in principle.
    My views are not postmodern. I would agree with some postmodern critiques of modernity and maybe that's why you're identifying my statements with postmodernism. My point is just that rationality is not an authority in and of itself, but must rely on or have faith in some other authority or standard in order to draw conclusions. Valiant places his faith in authorities most of the rest of us reject. He's wrong because the authorities he trusts have misled him from the objective truth.

    He may be delusional, but calling him delusional seems to be pointless as a persuasive measure. It seems to me that it's mostly an effort for people to comfort themselves with the idea that as long they are rational then they won't believe or do anything horrible. I think that's quite the error and just a continuation of the modernist lie that rationality can save humanity.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #163
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Of course the unknowns and undefineds are a huge category. which is why i am accepting of a variety of viewpoints. I would go as far as to say most things fit into acceptable. However, there are some views that are unacceptable. fo instance, Is the idea that women and men typically have the same number of teeth based on an unprovable presumption? I would say no.
    It seems the result of this thinking is that everything important is unknowable yet many things worth censuring people are trivial (Obviously NOT including the holocaust in this).
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #164
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Faith is an expedient that is unfortunately sometimes necessary. But I prefer minimizing it and maximizing inferable knowledge where feasible.

    I think when someone attempts to grasp the truth from faith, the basically just function as a subjectivist, because faith is removed from virtually any objective evidence.
    You don't understand what I'm talking about. I think faith is the basis of knowledge, not just a component.



    If I were to consider this man's beliefs so clearly removed from the facts that I would just assert he is crazy and his ideas not worth giving serious consideration (if any), would that be intolerant of me?
    No. Again, that's exactly what I've done with Valiant. I haven't engaged him at all and I have no intention of engaging him. Except that it doesn't matter to me whether or not Valiant is crazy. It seems to me some people need to believe he's crazy. That's just my gut feeling on the issue.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #165
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant View Post
    That is not the same thing, and there were never ordered to be killed. Prove it.
    Show me the order where they are ordered to be killed.
    I am certain you will reject all proof as faked, coerced, or otherwise tampered with. Nevertheless, I will rest assured in the knowledge that what I believe is in line with what the majority of historians have concluded about what is perhaps the most- and best-studied subject in history. You, on the other hand, hold a minority position defended by people who, like Germar Rudolf, find it necessary to quote themselves under different aliases, invent or misconstrue quotes, ignore or alter facts - all in an effort to muster just the appearance of scientificity, and yet fail miserably.

    I spent the afternoon researching the methods and practices of your cult. Very illuminating, almost as sad as funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant View Post
    I could pass for northern italian, yes. If you don't look at facial features.
    Facial-wise i'm of trönder type. Norwegian.
    I used to color my hair black, if that's what you mean. It's medium brown/reddish with light streaks.
    Don't have any unusual facial features, though.
    When I don't color my hair or go tanning in the winter, I look pretty damn normal. :b

    Besides. Italians are part of the white race. Turks are mixed.
    Not the same thing.
    You did not answer the question. Was it really your appearance that gave you away as a proper target?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant View Post
    Anyway, fire away. I know you're just trying to probe me for weakness, being the person you are.
    I'm going to bed now. Have fun slandering me and trying to destroy my reputation in whatever petty way you decide to go about it.
    I was trying to figure out how close your way of arguing is to the standard of the cult. It is probably not your fault that there is so much similarity among you soldiers (although that awful way of structuring your posts is all yours), because there really are but a few authors selling the lies you look for to support your beliefs. Being as clever as you are, you might be more useful to the cause making up history. I bet you can do a better job than many of the current prophets.

  6. #166
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It seems the result of this thinking is that everything important is unknowable yet many things worth censuring people are trivial (Obviously NOT including the holocaust in this).
    Yeah exactly. And we're all just trying to get more of the unknowns into the knowns. But that's probably why the unknowns are the big questions. If they were obvious we wouldn't get so hung up on them.


    (Just a point of distinction: I feel people should be censured for willfully expousing what they know to be false, not for just being wrong)

  7. #167
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    He may be delusional, but calling him delusional seems to be pointless as a persuasive measure. It seems to me that it's mostly an effort for people to comfort themselves with the idea that as long they are rational then they won't believe or do anything horrible. I think that's quite the error and just a continuation of the modernist lie that rationality can save humanity.
    He is an ever-flowing fountain of poisonous lies. Calling him delusional is a way to detox the lies. The alternative is bottling them up until the end of happiness.

    Surely there is something in the Bible about punishing false prophets that you can use to calm your consciousness.

  8. #168
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    My views are not postmodern. I would agree with some postmodern critiques of modernity and maybe that's why you're identifying my statements with postmodernism. My point is just that rationality is not an authority in and of itself, but must rely on or have faith in some other authority or standard in order to draw conclusions. Valiant places his faith in authorities most of the rest of us reject. He's wrong because the authorities he trusts have misled him from the objective truth.

    He may be delusional, but calling him delusional seems to be pointless as a persuasive measure. It seems to me that it's mostly an effort for people to comfort themselves with the idea that as long they are rational then they won't believe or do anything horrible. I think that's quite the error and just a continuation of the modernist lie that rationality can save humanity.
    I agree with the first paragraph. I don't agree that it's a pointless persuasive measure since it's the essence of saying "you're wrong". The point, I believe, is that it would be wrong to be silent about the issue. Whether he figures that out or not is a different issue entirely. At this juncture, he's placed his faith in a number of esoteric stances about the nature of historical events; he believes that character is determined by race and that the enemy is cosmopolitanism, when well managed cosmopolitan actions would yield benefits to white people and everyone involved. The interesting thing about rationalization - you can deduce people's unsaid viewpoints. This guy's a white supremacist, plain and simple. I don't think it's fine to say that his beliefs are justified or imply it by defaulting on an irrelevant tangent about how so-and-so isn't accepting him as a person.

  9. #169
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    If you think about it really, this is all @Bamboo's fault.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  10. #170
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Isn't everything?

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