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Race, Gender and Identity

Mole

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some people would rather embrace Eastern philosophy

If we embrace Buddhism, for instance, we are embracing the war crimes of the Sri Lankan Buddhists, and the dispossession, murders and burnings by the Burmese Buddhists.

But the blind Westerners embracing Buddhism keep telling us, and telling themselves, that Buddhism is a philosophy of peace.
 

Thalassa

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If we embrace Buddhism, for instance, we are embracing the war crimes of the Sri Lankan Buddhists, and the dispossession, murders and burnings by the Burmese Buddhists.

But the blind Westerners embracing Buddhism keep telling us, and telling themselves, that Buddhism is a philosophy of peace.

Victor I wonder if you EVER examine how little sense some of the stuff you say contains.

People do bad things; there will always be groups of people who murder, some of them happen to be religious, and yes Buddhism, especially Zen Buddhism (more similar to Taoism and more popular in the West) is a religion of peace.

Sim was wrong about you. You have NO Ni, especially to be as old as you are, I think you're at least old enough to be my dad, and if you had tertiary Ni you'd have more perspective on this kind of thing.

I'm going INFP for you, with an excessively Si need to confuse the symbol with the object.
 

Orangey

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Please do cease with the "crazy" invective, folks.

It seems more charitable than the alternative conclusions.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think anybody is seriously trying to diagnose this person with a mental illness. That would be an insult to the mentally ill.

[MENTION=18064]Valiant[/MENTION] probably isn't mentally ill just because you don't agree with him; entire countries of people are racist nationalists, white nationalism is not comparable to a serial killer in San Francisco thinking a homeless man was a Biblical prophet who told him to murder.

I don't support his views at all, but describing him as psychotic is probably not at all true.

Also, halocaust denying is NOT a feature of psychosis, it's a feature of extreme white nationalism.

You guys all seem really uneducated to me right now, I'm sorry, but you can't call people insane because you don't agree with, know about, or understand something.

I am NOT defending him in any way, even on European preservation forums, people like him are viewed as racists and extremists, rather than having a simple interest in European history and culture.

However, this conversation is crap. [MENTION=5789]Beorn[/MENTION] is right.

Well, nobody said he was psychotic specifically. In all fairness, though, I do think that a lot of the illucid things that he's written in this thread are signs of disordered thinking, which is usually a symptom of mental illness. But I wasn't even originally trying to go that far.

I'm not sure that I see where you're going with this, though. Are you saying that being mentally ill is worse than choosing to be an out and out racist (and espousing/evangelizing the harmful views that come with such a worldview?) Because to me it seems like it would be better to be psychotic (or have the excuse of being cray cray) than to be a completely normal person with serious intellectual and moral deficiencies.
 

Mole

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Victor I wonder if you EVER examine how little sense some of the stuff you say contains.

People do bad things; there will always be groups of people who murder, some of them happen to be religious, and yes Buddhism, especially Zen Buddhism (more similar to Taoism and more popular in the West) is a religion of peace.

Sim was wrong about you. You have NO Ni, especially to be as old as you are, I think you're at least old enough to be my dad, and if you had tertiary Ni you'd have more perspective on this kind of thing.

I'm going INFP for you, with an excessively Si need to confuse the symbol with the object.

You follow the normal pattern here, first to depersonalise me with mbti jargon to avoid dealing with me as a person, then you attack me rather than responding to what I say.
 

Thalassa

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You follow the normal pattern here, first to depersonalise me with mbti jargon to avoid dealing with me as a person, then you attack me rather than responding to what I say.

Oh I responded to what you said. I said you lack perspective if you think embracing Buddhist philosophy is an allegiance or support of violence of certain groups of people who happen to call themselves Buddhists.

Hope that clears it right up for you.
 

Qlip

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You follow the normal pattern here, first to depersonalise me with mbti jargon to avoid dealing with me as a person, then you attack me rather than responding to what I say.

It's almost as if you're on an MBTI discussion forum....
 

Magic Poriferan

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[MENTION=18064]Valiant[/MENTION] probably isn't mentally ill just because you don't agree with him; entire countries of people are racist nationalists, white nationalism is not comparable to a serial killer in San Francisco thinking a homeless man was a Biblical prophet who told him to murder.

I don't support his views at all, but describing him as psychotic is probably not at all true.

You miss the point of the question and the analogy entirely.
 

Magic Poriferan

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It seems more charitable than the alternative conclusions.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think anybody is seriously trying to diagnose this person with a mental illness. That would be an insult to the mentally ill.

Well, nobody said he was psychotic specifically. In all fairness, though, I do think that a lot of the illucid things that he's written in this thread are signs of disordered thinking, which is usually a symptom of mental illness. But I wasn't even originally trying to go that far.

I'm not sure that I see where you're going with this, though. Are you saying that being mentally ill is worse than choosing to be an out and out racist (and espousing/evangelizing the harmful views that come with such a worldview?) Because to me it seems like it would be better to be psychotic (or have the excuse of being cray cray) than to be a completely normal person with serious intellectual and moral deficiencies.

This is pretty much where I'm at too. I find the anger at me suggesting he has some psychological problem sort of comical, because I can't really see that accusation as being more offensive than calling someone a neo-nazi, which Valiant has essentially already take care of for himself. It is actually kinder to think this has something to do with a perhaps recent and hopefully resolvable mental problem.

Seriously, I already asked. If were somehow had proof that Valiant is not in least bit deranged, would your opinion of him improve? Would any of this seem less offensive, or more rational?

If you're going to find anything in this thread outrageous enough to gripe about, it shouldn't be something other than the guy spewing white supremacist tripe.
 

Thalassa

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You miss the point of the question and the analogy entirely.

I don't think I do.

Psychiatrists are trained to tell the difference between a person with a specific deranged delusion, and someone who merely is very religious and believes in assorted mythology.

And you talking about serial killer delusions in conjunction with white supremacy is actually not a good analogy.
 

Thalassa

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It seems more charitable than the alternative conclusions.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think anybody is seriously trying to diagnose this person with a mental illness. That would be an insult to the mentally ill.





Well, nobody said he was psychotic specifically. In all fairness, though, I do think that a lot of the illucid things that he's written in this thread are signs of disordered thinking, which is usually a symptom of mental illness. But I wasn't even originally trying to go that far.

I'm not sure that I see where you're going with this, though. Are you saying that being mentally ill is worse than choosing to be an out and out racist (and espousing/evangelizing the harmful views that come with such a worldview?) Because to me it seems like it would be better to be psychotic (or have the excuse of being cray cray) than to be a completely normal person with serious intellectual and moral deficiencies.

I'm not speaking in terms of better or worse, I am merely pointing out that a person having a certain belief system is not the same as them being mentally ill. At all.

I think it's important for intelligent, educated people to be able to tell the difference between a mentally ill person and someone who just has what could objectively be called an alternative belief system, stemming from racial pride, which is a human trait as old as dirt, it's linked to tribalism.

It's like when I see people call religious behavior or belief in god mentally ill or a delusion.

Whether it's ethically "good" or "bad" is immaterial. In some cultures, racial pride is considered normal and a very high form morality.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I don't think I do.

Psychiatrists are trained to tell the difference between a person with a specific deranged delusion, and someone who merely is very religious and believes in assorted mythology.

And you talking about serial killer delusions in conjunction with white supremacy is actually not a good analogy.

So, as someone who isn't a trained psychiatrist, should I consider the serial killers claims possibly reasonable? I mean, at least until I get a trained psychiatrist in to assess the situation.

You don't understand because you are too caught up on the comparison between Valiant and someone being a serial killer, or psychotic. That's not really the point, and you especially have to understand it in the context of my exchange with Beorn. The point was trying to see just how far Beorn takes his notion of being "tolerant" to someone else's beliefs. The guy could have been psychotic or not, he could have been a serially killer or a graffiti artist. The question is, were the beliefs he asserted reasonable enough to even bother considering?
 

Thalassa

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It seems more charitable than the alternative conclusions.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think anybody is seriously trying to diagnose this person with a mental illness. That would be an insult to the mentally ill.





Well, nobody said he was psychotic specifically. In all fairness, though, I do think that a lot of the illucid things that he's written in this thread are signs of disordered thinking, which is usually a symptom of mental illness. But I wasn't even originally trying to go that far.

I'm not sure that I see where you're going with this, though. Are you saying that being mentally ill is worse than choosing to be an out and out racist (and espousing/evangelizing the harmful views that come with such a worldview?) Because to me it seems like it would be better to be psychotic (or have the excuse of being cray cray) than to be a completely normal person with serious intellectual and moral deficiencies.

I'm not speaking in terms of better or worse, I am merely pointing out that a person having a certain belief system is not the same as them being mentally ill. At all.

I think it's important for intelligent, educated people to be able to tell the difference between a mentally ill person and someone who just has what could objectively be called an alternative belief system, stemming from racial pride, which is a human trait as old as dirt, it's linked to tribalism.

It's like when I see people call religious behavior or belief in god mentally ill or a delusion.

Whether it's ethically "good" or "bad" is immaterial. In some cultures, racial pride is considered normal and a very high form morality.
 

Thalassa

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So, as someone who isn't a trained psychiatrist, should I consider the serial killers claims possibly reasonable? I mean, at least until I get a trained psychiatrist in to assess the situation.

You don't understand because you are too caught up on the comparison between Valiant and someone being a serial killer, or psychotic. That's not really the point, and you especially have to understand it in the context of my exchange with Beorn. The point was trying to see just how far Beorn takes his notion of being "tolerant" to someone else's beliefs. The guy could have been psychotic or not, he could have been a serially killer or a graffiti artist. The question is, were the beliefs he asserted reasonable enough to even bother considering?

You're not getting my point at all, either, apparently.

I'm not defending [MENTION=18064]Valiant[/MENTION]'s beliefs out of some preachy attitude toward ethical tolerance.

I am asking you to use your N and T functions instead of your S an F ones, which is ironic seeing as that I am the ISFP and you are the INTP.

I am asking you to use perspective to see this as an objective, categorical THING, instead of something you're judging by your personal ethics.
 

Magic Poriferan

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You're not getting my point at all, either, apparently.

I'm not defending [MENTION=18064]Valiant[/MENTION]'s beliefs out of some preachy attitude toward ethical tolerance.

I am asking you to use your N and T functions instead of your S an F ones, which is ironic seeing as that I am the ISFP and you are the INTP.

I am asking you to use perspective to see this as an objective, categorical THING, instead of something you're judging by your personal ethics.

Ethics? Regardless of whether or not he's good or bad, regardless of whether or not he's doing harm, he is showing a particular disregard for evidence both empirical and rational, and standing resolute on baseless assumption that then further encourage him to add on more delusions. His infallibility, his suspicion of conspiracy, his sense of surrounding threat, etc... Like I said, it's freaking textbook. I don't think he's psychotic by the way, as that would have little to do with the sort of things he's saying. He is paranoid in some fashion, though the root of that paranoia is uncertain.

His accounts of history, ranging from Europeans inventing civilization to the holocaust not happening, are not values I don't share, they are rejections of thoroughly established facts and accepted parts of the cultural norm he was presumably informed of a very long time ago. His rejection of it is bizarre and mostly attributable to those errors of thinking I described above.
 
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Thalassa

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Ethics? Regardless of whether or not he's good or bad, regardless of whether or not he's doing harm, he is showing a particular disregard for evidence both empirical and rational, and standing resolute on baseless assumption that then further encourage him to add on more delusions. His infallibility, his suspicion of conspiracy, his sense of surrounding threat, etc... Like I said, it's freaking textbook. I think he's psychotic by the way, as that would have little to do with the sort of things he's saying. He is paranoid in some fashion, though the root of that paranoia is uncertain.

Well let me enlighten you. It stems from what white nationalists see as favoritism toward minorities, but also the actual physically diminishing numbers of blondes and redheads in the world, and a trend in mainland Europe toward multi-culturalism instead of carefully preserving long-held European traditions, as well as mass immigration; hard core white nationalists and the most racially conscious preservationist (versus culturally conscious, which is why I had any interest in the topic, because of culture and history) urge young whites to reproduce to create more people of caucasion descent, since the birth rates of whites have steadily dropped whilst non-white birth rates are increasing.

Your ignorance of the topic and the subsequent movement doesn't mean his paranoia is inexplicable or unique to him; quite the contrary.

His accounts of history, ranging from Europeans inventing civilization to the holocaust not happening, are not values I don't share, they are rejections of thoroughly established facts and accepted parts of the cultural norm he was presumably informed of a very long time ago. His rejection of it is bizarre and mostly attributable to those errors of thinking I described above.

Holocaust denying is a huge thing, you see it on the Internet everywhere, just like Objectivism or believing in aliens. That makes him eccentric, perhaps even selective about facts, but not necessarily insane.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Well let me enlighten you. It stems from what white nationalists see as favoritism toward minorities, but also the actual physically diminishing numbers of blondes and redheads in the world, and a trend in mainland Europe toward multi-culturalism instead of carefully preserving long-held European traditions, as well as mass immigration; hard core white nationalists and the most racially conscious preservationist (versus culturally conscious, which is why I had any interest in the topic, because of culture and history) urge young whites to reproduce to create more people of caucasion descent, since the birth rates of whites have steadily dropped whilst non-white birth rates are increasing.

Your ignorance of the topic and the subsequent movement doesn't mean his paranoia is inexplicable or unique to him; quite the contrary.

I'm not ignorant of the topic and you didn't tell me anything I didn't know. As if it wouldn't be obvious that I am would know about something like this in the first place, I also happened to do a piece on the British National Party for one of my sociology courses. The key element of your statement is the phrase "what white nationalists see". Yes, that's what they see. It doesn't seem to be how most people see it. At any rate, none of this stuff actually gets to the most unreasonable elements of what he's saying.


Holocaust denying is a huge thing, you see it on the Internet everywhere, just like Objectivism or believing in aliens. That makes him eccentric, perhaps even selective about facts, but not necessarily insane.

Let's get two things straight. One is that holocaust denying isn't really a huge thing compared to people who believe the holocaust happened. It's actually quite fringe when seen in that light. The second thing is that some mutually attracting sub-culture of believers doesn't make an idea any less ridiculous, and it doesn't make the kind of thinking it requires to be convinced of it any healthier.
 

Thalassa

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Also, let it be known that Ni types are frequently known for their suspicion and questioning of commonly-held "facts"...things that are in actuality unprovable by Se, and they don't trust Si stores of knowledge as being reliable (the adage that history is a myth) ...and sure it might point to inferior Ni or an Ni/Ji loop in most cases...I think [MENTION=18064]Valiant[/MENTION] is actually probably an ESTP and not an ENTJ...which serves to explain why someone would, in fact, deny the halocaust did happen.

Besides, when people are faced with things like mass immigration and directly perceived "threats" to their tribal beliefs or ways, they often react with a kind of defensive mechanism. Jung believed that people needed a coherent cultural mythology to even stay sane. I saw an incredible argument by a Norwegian liberal former multi-culturalist on why Russian nationalism is actually healthy because of the way Russian people were robbed of their culture by the Soviets.

If you want to know what my ETHICAL reaction was to YLJ, then you can flip a few pages back and see where I mocked him and called him pathetic, but that's just my personal ethical view; in the grand scheme of things, I know on a factual, rational level that white nationalism exists, and why, and even why someone could respond as he has given a particular set of circumstances.

I mean saying all white nationalists are insane is like saying everyone who belongs to the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street is insane.
 

Thalassa

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I'm not ignorant of the topic and you didn't tell me anything I didn't know. As if it wouldn't be obvious that I am would know about something like this in the first place, I also happened to do a piece on the British National Party for one of my sociology courses. The key element of your statement is the phrase "what white nationalists see". Yes, that's what they see. It doesn't seem to be how most people see it. At any rate, none of this stuff actually gets to the most unreasonable elements of what he's saying.

Yes, but you have to have a little more perspective on WHY white nationalists see as they do, if you aren't just going to declare them crazy, which is frankly immature.

They aren't "crazy."

They're actually having a very predictable, tribal reaction to globalization and mass immigration in their countries.

The men in particular feel threatened, which is historically speaking, WHY men go to war...to protect their own KIND, whether it be their family, tribe, race, or country.

Men are more territorial than women. That's why women were frequently used as "peace weavers" in earlier times, they could be married off to leaders of near-enemy countries.

You can condemn it all you want, but unless you attempt to understand WHY they think as they do, and just insist on INCORRECTLY calling them mentally ill, I'm going to keep correcting you.




Let's get two things straight. One is that holocaust denying isn't really a huge thing compared to people who believe the holocaust happened. It's actually quite fringe when seen in that light. The second thing is that some mutually attracting sub-culture of believers doesn't make an idea any less ridiculous, and it doesn't make the kind of thinking it requires to be convinced of it any healthier.

:shrug:
 

Magic Poriferan

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Also, let it be known that Ni types are frequently known for their suspicion and questioning of commonly-held "facts"...things that are in actuality unprovable by Se, and they don't trust Si stores of knowledge as being reliable (the adage that history is a myth) ...and sure it might point to inferior Ni or an Ni/Ji loop in most cases...I think [MENTION=18064]Valiant[/MENTION] is actually probably an ESTP and not an ENTJ...which serves to explain why someone would, in fact, deny the halocaust did happen.

I don't care about cognitive process analysis.

Besides, when people are faced with things like mass immigration and directly perceived "threats" to their tribal beliefs or ways, they often react with a kind of defensive mechanism. Jung believed that people needed a coherent cultural mythology to even stay sane.

Jung might not be the best guy to cite here, given some of his history on the topic of nationalism and Jews.

I saw an incredible argument by a Norwegian liberal former multi-culturalist on why Russian nationalism is actually healthy because of the way Russian people were robbed of their culture by the Soviets.

It's funny thing, but I find liberal pluralists frequently wind up at some point where they are defending some nationalists somewhere. I could go on about that all day, but I think that's another topic.

If you want to know what my ETHICAL reaction was to YLJ, then you can flip a few pages back and see where I mocked him and called him pathetic, but that's just my personal ethical view; in the grand scheme of things, I know on a factual, rational level that white nationalism exists, and why, and even why someone could respond as he has given a particular set of circumstances.

Acknowledging those things doesn't mean the people in question aren't mentally ill.

I mean saying all white nationalists are insane is like saying everyone who belongs to the Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street is insane.

Well, there's really more to it than just being a white nationalist. It's specifically this habit of revising pretty much all accepted understanding of history and a great deal of anthropological science, too, and the kind of thinking we can presume goes along with that and certainly appeared to while he was posting on this site.

You can condemn it all you want, but unless you attempt to understand WHY they think as they do, and just insist on INCORRECTLY calling them mentally ill, I'm going to keep correcting you.

Heh. You want to talk about psychiatry? Calling a person mentally ill should not be conflated with making no attempt to understand their thinking.
 

Thalassa

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You're so locked into your own paradigm you can't see what I'm saying.

You should spend some time on white nationalist forums without having a knee jerk reaction to it.

It's really a growth experience to spend a lot of time around people who fiercely disgust you morally, or who live a way you don't understand.

I'm surprised with you being a Ti rather than Fi type that you're even like this, but it may be a result of Ji/Si.

You can only understand the underpinnings of things you disagree with if you see them for what they actually are UNDERNEATH.
 
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