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  1. #11
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Good advice, thank you.
    Heh, I'll respond tomorrow after some rest, gives me a chance to think as well.

    But I wanted to correct my awesome slip there - "significantly" should have been "not significantly". If I was Freudian, I'd say perhaps I haven't dealt with it as much as I thought I had... and that I was compensating by trying to understand.

    However, I'm not, so I'll just take my ego and hide it somewhere safe.

  2. #12
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    Hey, live mindmate ride the INTP/INTP way .
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  3. #13
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I've always felt gender neutral. I came to terms with being "a girl," but it used to feel increadibly weird. My body never felt wrong, but I'd look at one gender group, look at the other, and if you asked where I fit, I'd say "neither." Still pretty much do.

    Meh.

    I sort of wonder, given my sister's history, if she won't end up trans-gendered. Old pictures of her look like a little boy, she was often mistaken as a little boy (and never corrected the perception), and always voilently rebelled against wearing a dress. She's an ISFJ, tho, and definately wants a house and a car and two-point-five-eight kids, so I think she may not make the transition. It was hard enough for her to decide she wanted to live as a lesbian, and she still talks about possibly marrying her best (male) friend or something.
    Let's do this thing.
    Likes Punderstorm liked this post

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meshou View Post
    For what it's worth, I've always felt gender neutral. I came to terms with being "a girl," but it used to feel incredibly weird. My body never felt wrong, but I'd look at one gender group, look at the other, and if you asked where I fit, I'd say "neither." Still pretty much do.
    It is worth something. It helps to hear where other people are or where they've been, since it helps us know what is typical and/or realistic for ourselves.

    I understand what you mean by "neither." I might self-identify more with female, but I think I am always going to feel "different" ... because I am. I do not have all the typical "female experiences" nor can I acquire the ones I 've missed. So it's just like trying to finish the puzzle while knowing you don't have all the pieces, and just trying to get the best picture you can out of what you have. You never do completely fit, you just make do.

    Meh.
    Yeah.

    I sort of wonder, given my sister's history, if she won't end up trans-gendered. Old pictures of her look like a little boy, she was often mistaken as a little boy (and never corrected the perception), and always violently rebelled against wearing a dress. She's an ISFJ, tho, and definitely wants a house and a car and two-point-five-eight kids, so I think she may not make the transition. It was hard enough for her to decide she wanted to live as a lesbian, and she still talks about possibly marrying her best (male) friend or something.
    How old is she now? I don't know, those outward traits can definitely indicate transgender feelings, but it comes down mostly to her self-identity, how she views herself; I know some lesbians are more masculine in their presentation but are fine with being physically female.

    I wish it was easier -- that we didn't so often have to give up so much to get something else. I guess that just makes the things we choose even more valuable to us.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I do not think I have heard from any S's. N's seem to understand the whole thing much more intuitively. (well.... duh! )
    *cough*

    Maybe just semi-quasi S, or a true X if such a thing exists, but *cough*

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    *cough* Maybe just semi-quasi S, or a true X if such a thing exists, but *cough*
    kk, correction noted:

    N = a whole busload
    X = 1
    S = 0
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    That night, she was just thinking about that night, while I was taking it as "helping me through the whole mess." The next day she realized what was going on and just lost it.
    Has this changed now? I mean, is she thinking about social repercussions and the like still? I know you said she's willing to do whatever she can now, but will the old set of standards come back? (Or is the SJ jump strong enough?)

    Also, Do you think her nature has changed dramatically? Is she more open (more N) or less controlling (less J), outside of the upheaval (kids, friends, etc - you would be biased since the issues revolve around you).

    Basic three:
    1. Divorce AND/OR gender confusion is immoral because the Bible says so, so he just CAN'T.
    2. He married me, so he can't leave.
    3. I will be so embarrassed / Everyone will think poorly of me.
    So all very personal to her, even when it's external. How religious was she before this? (Did the upheaval increase her religious beliefs, or just redefine them?)

    1. At that point in my life, I was very "intellectual/INTP'ish" -- no emotional expression, everything was "logical and objective" and had to be verifiable.

    2. I was studying the Bible and trying to "find the right answer" that would reconcile my feelings, my desires, verses in the Bible, and my life. i wanted to be able to justify my choice to everyone else as well as myself, so they could not argue with me and/or look down on me.
    I don't mean to sidetrack this into religion, but I'm curious how these two went together.

    Since I internalized much of it, even if I *told* her about it, she just did not really understand how BAD it was... until I finally really told her. Told her how I had been struggling not to just swallow all my pills, or start cutting myself, or run my car impulsively into a bridge wall, all of those stupid horrible things we do to ourselves when we feel so crappy we don't care whether we live or die anymore. It shocked her.
    Hmmm, ISFJ... Obviously it was a shock to her, but I'm trying to think if I'd be willing to stay with someone in the same situation - honestly, I doubt it.

    Do you have any thoughts on type/personality in regards to how devoted/caring she was towards you (once understood), yet also so shocked and unhappy after you told her? Do you see it as flipped sides of the personality or were there different factors involved?

    (I don't know if that makes sense... Do you think that it was a matter of working through her emotions and her picking the "choice" that was most suitable for her, or would she of immediately supported you if she had understood how bad you felt? Do you think another type would of reacted better initially? Do you think another type would of stayed with you? My feeling for both is that most types would *not* of stayed with you, and many types wouldn't of reacted all that well either. Was having an ISFJ a boon in this case? Would you of thought so if she wasn't religious and had left?)

    That is sort of how she has talked about this. She just said the other day (and the day also that she made her decision to free me) that I have spent all of my life trying to take care of everyone else and worry about what they needed, and trying to make them happy, and slowly getting worse and worse because I was giving up so much of myself... and now it was time to let other people take care of me.
    Hmm, that's unusual for an ISFJ to say, no? How much do you think that is projection from her own personality (she has taken your difficulties and rendered them in an ISFJ lens)? It seems pretty insightful into her personality.

    (FWIW, since religion and SJs are considered negative things most of the time, I'm very impressed with how she was able to cope and then support you. It sure shows the value of both at the personal level! That's my interest in the type/religion stuff, to see how it worked/where it came from.)

    Without faith in the picture, we would have divorced either before 1995, or within a few months after my revelation. We would have also divorced numerous times since 1997 up to the present day. Faith beliefs were the only thing that kept us together this long.
    Have your views on the value of faith changed significantly? I guess I know the answer to that one. Better question - would you still hold the same opinion on faith if it hadn't been demonstrated by you/your wife?

    Funny, now... Our faiths are no longer the same (so that no longer can hold together our marriage), but we are together because we really care about each other. I don't care whether our marriage works or not, I will always care about her and she for me -- we're like best friends, and I'd do whatever I could to care for her. Part of this is what she has just done for me; I know how much it cost her to make that decision, and I knew how much she cared about me when she did.


    I don't know.. I'm getting mentally tired and that was a little vague, maybe you can clarify for tomorrow.
    Looking at specific costs - was there signs of;

    1) Spousal guarding (ensuring attention wasn't directed at her/you)
    2) Spousal hoarding (no free time for yourself)

    before that are no longer present (or are now present but weren't before). Specific to sexual relation prevention. (There are other spousal costs, like threatening/actual infidelity, emotional manipulation... but I don't think those are relevant).

    I note that you mention a lot more togetherness, so this is more just to see if there was a difference - not to assign it to any particular change in the relationship.

    I guess if you want to refer to it that way... maybe. I don't know anymore. I know the RL change did impact my concerns about type... and the whole non-INTP vs INTP battle had a lot to do with it too. I finally made some decisions about what I was willing to give up (reputation-wise) to do what I believed was right, and committed to a course of action. Normally I play diffuse or indefinite; I guess that I just grew up and finally staked myself on something.
    I dealt with identity issues by removing identity from my life - I rarely care about any label at all (this was social out casting more than what you are going through). Not the healthiest way of doing it...

    Does that fit with how you feel? Or do you feel that you are throwing off a bad "label" and embracing a new label, one that you believes fits you.

    (Label sounds so bad, but I mean role, groups of expectations, etc...)

    I mean, you are a man, and I love talking to you... but it's not because you're a man, it's because of your mind.
    However, I did pick up on a reluctance to talk from you - does that surprise you? (This is not projection, it's something I said before INTPc).

    In general, if I am forced to choose between a "man's group" and a "woman's group" I will always pick the woman's group. I also find it much easier to talk to women than to men, unless the right topic comes up. Part of that is because women are generally better conversationaliss, but it is also because I have an easier rapport with them.
    I guess back to the original question - have you reached any opinion on why the rapport with women? I'm looking for an internal reason... Do you think it is only about how you wanted to be part of the group? Or is it because you were naturally "female" and thus fit in? Was it the stress of being "male" that it simply was forced - not natural - and that impeded male bonding?

    (It's said that men bond quicker and easier the women... so while I won't reject the female-female bond thing, I am questioning it! So I'm also very curious on your views on what motivated subconscious actions and biases... sorry for harping on the question.)


    Well, *I* was being generous.
    Yes... Yes you were.

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Has this changed now? I mean, is she thinking about social repercussions and the like still? I know you said she's willing to do whatever she can now, but will the old set of standards come back? (Or is the SJ jump strong enough?)
    She and I have talked about this. She firmly believe her shift to be "God" because she was expecting herself to renege like she always does, and she said she has felt fine with this. She doesn't plan to back out, although she doesn't explicitly claim it's not a possibility.

    I think it is very likely she will stick to this... it was a pattern she was already developing, not a "new" jump, this just propelled her forward... but I don't expect her to emotionally always be "fine," I am expecting some tension from it. She's human.

    Also, Do you think her nature has changed dramatically? Is she more open (more N) or less controlling (less J), outside of the upheaval (kids, friends, etc - you would be biased since the issues revolve around you).
    Yes, she's much different than she was years ago, as am I (we changed each other a great deal). For my part, I expanded her ability to imagine and think about big long-term things, as well as things she could not get her hands on. Dealing with the children and me also forced her to be more flexible in her life. The things we used to fight about ten years ago (horrible fights) are things we take in stride today. She flexes very well for an ISFJ.

    And this was developing BEFORE all of this, so I don't see it changing... it is part of her.

    So all very personal to her, even when it's external. How religious was she before this? (Did the upheaval increase her religious beliefs, or just redefine them?)
    She got very depressed when my faith crisis become open knowledge to her last fall. She took a few months trying to deal with it, then went to a seminar with a woman whose husband also had the same sort of "shift" and her story and description of what she needed to learn to make things work very much impacted my wife. I think that change also helped with this.

    Hmmm, ISFJ... Obviously it was a shock to her, but I'm trying to think if I'd be willing to stay with someone in the same situation - honestly, I doubt it.
    Then it is good I'm not married to you.
    Or not good, if someone wants their spouse to leave.

    I remember thinking numerous times (in typical P fashion) that I had just wished she would go, so that I would not have to make the decisions. This situation is very different from how things would have gone years ago... I am being proactive, and she is flexing.

    Do you have any thoughts on type/personality in regards to how devoted/caring she was towards you (once understood), yet also so shocked and unhappy after you told her? Do you see it as flipped sides of the personality or were there different factors involved?
    Uh.... um...ehhhh....

    (I don't know if that makes sense... Do you think that it was a matter of working through her emotions and her picking the "choice" that was most suitable for her, or would she of immediately supported you if she had understood how bad you felt?
    I think it was both. There is a spontaneity to her -- she really does not like to see me hurting so bad, or knowing how bad I hurt, because she loves me -- but there is also a very strong moral discernment sense to her. She is self-controlled and very much subjects her feelings to her moral/religious construction. I don't think in any case that her decision here was "suitable" for her, it seems it's the worst thing for her in terms of what she wanted out of life.

    Do you think another type would of reacted better initially? Do you think another type would of stayed with you? My feeling for both is that most types would *not* of stayed with you, and many types wouldn't of reacted all that well either. Was having an ISFJ a boon in this case? Would you of thought so if she wasn't religious and had left?)
    I guess they would not have. She stuck to me because she WAS ISFJ -- she wanted the marriage to work, she didn't want to lose face, she believed divorce was wrong, she wanted to be in control, she wasn't about to fail (she hates failing). I can't believe she didn't try to leave earlier. She is just as stubborn as hell. That is one of the traits I most admire in her, now that it is not directed at me so much.

    At the time, I would have said it was not a boon. I wanted her to leave and make my decision for me, because i could not make one. Today I can look back and see that, despite all the pain, we have learned what we needed to learn. And if I had tried to do this earlier, I would have been an utter mess.

    Hmm, that's unusual for an ISFJ to say, no? How much do you think that is projection from her own personality (she has taken your difficulties and rendered them in an ISFJ lens)? It seems pretty insightful into her personality.
    if it is a paradigm that works for her, then I'm okay with it. And it teaches me something too. I don't think in that paradigm normally, and don't know where my boundaries should be. She's taught me a lot about responsibility and loyalty and all of that fun stuff.

    (FWIW, since religion and SJs are considered negative things most of the time, I'm very impressed with how she was able to cope and then support you. It sure shows the value of both at the personal level! That's my interest in the type/religion stuff, to see how it worked/where it came from.)
    And it is why I get a little frustrated hearing the young 'uns who haven't been in long-term relationships or have experience with authentic versions of spirituality shooting off their mouths about how bad SJs and religions are... There is a lot more to it than the griping, there are some beautiful aspects of being SJ and/or religious, things I admire deeply now.

    Have your views on the value of faith changed significantly? I guess I know the answer to that one. Better question - would you still hold the same opinion on faith if it hadn't been demonstrated by you/your wife?
    Uh... lost this one. Sorry.

    My opinion on faith is constantly in revision, based on what I see around me and view as the most reasonable...

    1) Spousal guarding (ensuring attention wasn't directed at her/you)
    2) Spousal hoarding (no free time for yourself)

    before that are no longer present (or are now present but weren't before). Specific to sexual relation prevention. (There are other spousal costs, like threatening/actual infidelity, emotional manipulation... but I don't think those are relevant).
    More explanation on this one too, I'm not quite sure what the shorthand means.

    I dealt with identity issues by removing identity from my life - I rarely care about any label at all (this was social out casting more than what you are going through). Not the healthiest way of doing it...

    Does that fit with how you feel? Or do you feel that you are throwing off a bad "label" and embracing a new label, one that you believes fits you.

    (Label sounds so bad, but I mean role, groups of expectations, etc...)
    I know. And the answer is, I'm not sure. I will write about these things later when I get some energy, but ... it really just gets down to a core-level situation: I am miserable, depressed, and sometimes even suicidal in the male role, and feel happy, content, and at peace in the female (even if I would be undergoing stress). I feel rather dead being interacted with as male, I feel repulsion I can't explain over my body as if "it's all wrong," and the thought of being female socially and physically brings a big sigh of relief.

    labels? I don't know much about the labels. I think the labels I would inadvertently take on, early on, would just be so that I could feel secure that I was in fact being perceived and accepted as female, but i would expect that as my confidence grew, that would all change and I would give myself even more freedom to just "be."

    However, I did pick up on a reluctance to talk from you - does that surprise you? (This is not projection, it's something I said before INTPc).
    You did? Yes, it surprises me. I never remember feeling reluctant to talk to you in particular...

    I guess back to the original question - have you reached any opinion on why the rapport with women? I'm looking for an internal reason... Do you think it is only about how you wanted to be part of the group? Or is it because you were naturally "female" and thus fit in? Was it the stress of being "male" that it simply was forced - not natural - and that impeded male bonding?
    For whatever reason, I just don't... care much... about male bonding. It holds little interest. I always want to bond with women, without really even thinking much about it, and it hurt(s) a lot when I couldn't, like I am being ostracized and rejected, because they would perceive me as male and things would be awkward.

    I mean, the whole "sex" thing always comes up, just as a minor point here. Targo and I had a friendship before all this, but it was always strained, and tense, and odd, with that weird flirting undercurrent ... and as soon as I told her about me, we began relating in a totally different way and I really really love it. The things that might have bothered me in the past, even the ENFP vs INTP differences, no longer bother me. Isn't that odd? Something changed.

    hope that helps...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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