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Thread: Radio and IQ

  1. #31
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The reality is that tribal life is short, sharp nasty and brutish.
    And our life is long, dull, mindless, and full of using our 'intelligence' to fix all the shit that our 'intelligence' fucked up.

  2. #32
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    It's also ironic that such people are called savages. I mean if you go to the jungle and meet the people that live there, they know what to eat and know what can kill you and have names for plants and animals that many have never even seen before. Some modern person from society might call these people dumb savages because they don't have computers and electricity, but these people are smart in a different way - they can survive on their own where others would probably die in a week without the 100 necessities that they don't know how to make themselves.
    You can always look at everything in multiple ways, each uncovering other aspects of the situation, adding to the data pool.

    Look at homicid rates for example, the reason why rousseau is my shit list with descartes (oh, descartes :slapping: ) primitive societies despite lower populations (with bigger groups our brains just sort of lose the capacity to put everyone in empathy s "in group" and has to use simplistic categorization over more reliable personal rapport. Division of labor is similar, a human cant specialise in all, so we keep the minimum info and have specialists. "Primitive" like societies are too simple for that. They also dont have the complex legal system (leviathan) we have to limit lex talyonis and other fun stuff
    Ok so yeah. Homicids, highest in primitive societies. But the us, long and perhaps still considered as a superpower and hugely influential for its relatively young history/identity also has humongous homicid rates.

    What is then civilization, if not the ability to work and live together to control our environment an modify it as it suits us. I guess its a matter of multiple factors balancing each other out.

    If a race had waged war across the stars yet spread through the galaxy. Wouldnt we call it a civilization. Violence is inherent to homeostatic beings living in env. With limited ressources.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #33
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    And our life is long, dull, mindless, and full of using our 'intelligence' to fix all the shit that our 'intelligence' fucked up.
    This is the view of the Romantic Movement which is a reaction to the Enlightenment.

    The Romantic Movement gave us the New Age with astrology and mbti, while the Enlighenment gave us modern medicine.

    But alas, the Romantic Movement is a fig leaf for neurosis.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    You can always look at everything in multiple ways, each uncovering other aspects of the situation, adding to the data pool.

    Look at homicid rates for example, the reason why rousseau is my shit list with descartes (oh, descartes :slapping: ) primitive societies despite lower populations (with bigger groups our brains just sort of lose the capacity to put everyone in empathy s "in group" and has to use simplistic categorization over more reliable personal rapport. Division of labor is similar, a human cant specialise in all, so we keep the minimum info and have specialists. "Primitive" like societies are too simple for that. They also dont have the complex legal system (leviathan) we have to limit lex talyonis and other fun stuff
    Ok so yeah. Homicids, highest in primitive societies. But the us, long and perhaps still considered as a superpower and hugely influential for its relatively young history/identity also has humongous homicid rates.

    What is then civilization, if not the ability to work and live together to control our environment an modify it as it suits us. I guess its a matter of multiple factors balancing each other out.

    If a race had waged war across the stars yet spread through the galaxy. Wouldnt we call it a civilization. Violence is inherent to homeostatic beings living in env. With limited ressources.
    Did you know that in some parts of Asia, rice farmers are also duck farmers? They don't need pesticides because the ducks eat the bugs, and they don't need fertilizer because the ducks do that too, and they can also eat the ducks and their eggs.

    When something like that stops being effective, I don't take it as a sign that the method isn't good enough. I take it as a sign that there's too damn many people around.

    We have a monolithic society and loads of violence because there are too many people. Small societies can work because small societies do work. Failures of a large society are not failures of methods, but failures in the size of the society - just like rats that will eat anything and everything, including farm animals, entire houses, and each other when their numbers are unchecked.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is the view of the Romantic Movement which is a reaction to the Enlightenment.

    The Romantic Movement gave us the New Age with astrology and mbti, while the Enlighenment gave us modern medicine.

    But alas, the Romantic Movement is a fig leaf for neurosis.
    It's not about Romanticism.

    I do not like it when anyone gets marginalized, and I do not suffer haughty intellectuals.

    I can get behind practical intelligence and problem solving. I will not get behind elitism or progress for the sake of it. If one ignores the implications of modern medicine, or splitting the atom, and only care about it because it brings intellectual superiority, then I say they are not nearly as smart as they think.

  6. #36
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Did you know that in some parts of Asia, rice farmers are also duck farmers? They don't need pesticides because the ducks eat the bugs, and they don't need fertilizer because the ducks do that too, and they can also eat the ducks and their eggs.

    When something like that stops being effective, I don't take it as a sign that the method isn't good enough. I take it as a sign that there's too damn many people around.

    We have a monolithic society and loads of violence because there are too many people. Small societies can work because small societies do work. Failures of a large society are not failures of methods, but failures in the size of the society - just like rats that will eat anything and everything, including farm animals, entire houses, and each other when their numbers are unchecked.
    I understand your point and it has its merits. However statistics show us than small societies (but we'd have to define societies better in this case) are in fact less functional than larger ones.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I understand your point and it has its merits. However statistics show us than small societies (but we'd have to define societies better in this case) are in fact less functional than larger ones.
    How so? What's less functional?

    Also I'd posit that if a small society is indeed less functional, 9 times out of 10 a large society is responsible for it, either from exploiting them, creating a modern presence and then abandoning them, or pushing them out from useful land and resources - and often all three.

  8. #38
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    How so? What's less functional?

    Also I'd posit that if a small society is indeed less functional, 9 times out of 10 a large society is responsible for it, either from exploiting them, creating a modern presence and then abandoning them, or pushing them out from useful land and resources - and often all three.
    Well of course. Competition is at the heart of life, cooperation is a more recent thing
    edit: and is used in.... a competition for resource and control over the group (species/interspecies) against the rest of the environment.
    Then there is cooperation and competition within the species for supremacy of a given gene set / meme set over available resources (minds, food, mates, influence, mana...)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #39
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    How so? What's less functional?

    Also I'd posit that if a small society is indeed less functional, 9 times out of 10 a large society is responsible for it, either from exploiting them, creating a modern presence and then abandoning them, or pushing them out from useful land and resources - and often all three.
    We are, replicators. In mind and spirit we would spread at an exponential rate if left unchecked.

    With unlimited resources it would take a few weeks to fill the universe with bacteria for example (i'd do the math to get you an exact range but 'm working on something now so I have 30 seconds at a time to spare).
    If these societies were so functional (at acquiring resources and reproducing, because at the end of the day that's what animals do) why didn't they turn into civilizations etc.

    There is nothing wrong with these cultures, just as there is nothing wrong with the guy who finishes last in a run.

    However in a world where everything constantly evolves. where environments change and fitness to environment has to follow you have to admit that currently the hum, well what we could call the 'developped and developping meta civilization' that is what we see on most maps and where airlines land and people have bank accounts etc (yes, I know some guys get governement pension in the jungle but im not trying to argue the fine points due to limited time (but you are more than welcome to take it upon yourself to ask for answers, it 's fair, just explaining my setting to give context to my side of the conversation) Are more successful at acquiring resources and reproducing culturally and in terms of genepool than these 'small societies'.

    WHich means that if the bigger societies can reproduce more and assuming that the total sum of resources we can extract from our surrounding is limited at some point these smaller societies HAVE to die out (except if kept 'unnaturally' alive in preserves BY these larger societies).

    I would say that something with a structural expiry date on it, doomed to die, a culture that is not trully free to define itself isn't trully a functional independent entity.

    ( situation 1: where they don't die / are engulfed in the long run is mayhaps if the rest of the world just leave the world alone and invade the rest of the universe, but then again it would also be 'up to the bigger society' the smaller ones are powerless to define their own destiny)
    (situation 2: humanity as a species change (we're talking massive social and genetic engineering here) and loses its drive for expansion, living in perfect harmony with nature and such in a 0 growth pattern )

    that is what i meant in a nutshell
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well of course. Competition is at the heart of life, cooperation is a more recent thing
    edit: and is used in.... a competition for resource and control over the group (species/interspecies) against the rest of the environment.
    Then there is cooperation and competition within the species for supremacy of a given gene set / meme set over available resources (minds, food, mates, influence, mana...)
    Yes, and yet there are ancient tribes who have maintained their solidarity and culture for thousands of years. Competition happens. Raids happen. They some times kill each other. But rarely do they break homeostasis because they integrate all aspects of living, including illness and death.

    No species does this quite like the modern human - not even other humans.

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