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  1. #11
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I'd theorize that that kind of attitude would correlate with a culture that tends to discourage positive sexuality in women and teenage girls, while flooding you with things associated with heterosexual male sexuality.

    Then again, I was raised by fundamentalists and I still find the attitude described in the OP utterly alien, so who knows.
    -end of thread-

  2. #12
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    I finally got around to reading the study.

    This is a sub-selection of 274 from 476 'young women' who had performed oral sex; a sub-selection of 98 from the 274 that were willing to be interviewed; with the literature itself being about a sub-selection of 44 from the 98. It is not representative enough to generalize. Also, reading some snapshots of the interviews make me think that there is a lot of confusion involved, which is hardly surprising.Finally age of 16.2, SD 0.91 is a higher age than I would expect (I was expecting 14-16 SD 1.x).

    However, the study is very interesting. I honestly don't see any issue here; from what I can tell, sexual expression of these particular types is interesting and worth investigating, but would need to be put in a larger context to turn it into a social issue (cross cultural, longitudinal, better sampling).

  3. #13
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The world has changed - now pornography is available to all at the touch of a button. And pornography is the graphic depiction of the brothel. And now we have the brothel without walls 24/7 on the internet.

    This has not passed unnoticed by teenage girls who have responded with Raunch Culture.

  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It is not representative enough to generalize. [...] ...from what I can tell, sexual expression of these particular types is interesting and worth investigating, but would need to be put in a larger context to turn it into a social issue (cross cultural, longitudinal, better sampling).
    Yes, the importance of this can't be understated.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #15
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    This is something that concerns me, too, the echoes of the capitalistic system in personal life, which I think is what is reaching into the educational system as well - I have several family members in education and we often discuss the bastardization of education into a production line for cogs, too, with "hollow", as you say, methods for assessment of true growth, development, maturity, and thought.

    For those who question the reality of capitalism impinging upon relationships and sexuality, the Fifty Shades of Grey series is an excellent example, with the love interests' affluence making up for what he lacks in actual relational skills, and the protagonist essentially taking on the role of another item in the man's collection of possessions. She does rebel against this, but in response, he shifts her status from possession into co-owner/bourgeoisie.

    Perhaps it's no coincidence that I am having these thoughts on Thanksgiving Day, a time for gratitude of what we have (immediately followed by massive sick insanity of consumerism that is Black Friday). I think it is beyond time for the world to move past capitalism... it's a system that plays into human weaknesses and causes us to prey upon one another. We're socialized into seeing others as competition, to see resources as scarce, to search for things that will create happiness. We are drawn into a perspective of the world where there is never enough. Of course it is coded into our DNA that we must survive, above all... which brings me to the thought -

    it seems pretty clear that there are more sx males than females. this also distorts the overall game by making it so that the "me getting what i want will make me whole" rather than through this relational process we will build something that is whole. much more self-aggrandizement, trying to win, competing for better prizes. [...] sx, high risk high stakes capitalist game mentality that is really helpful to setup a highly conservative ideology across other domains of difference (/class).
    As sx-dom myself, this rang somewhat true but also not as the whole story. Unfortunately I think it is every instinct variant that plays into the capitalism of culture - the very word instinct is the key. We are all wired to survive at any cost, and the sx focus on intimacy and immersion is only one manifestation of the desperate vestigial "I need I need I need". Sp must have housing, food, transportation, control. So must have the herd, insiders and outsiders, positions, roles. Capitalism provides all of this, keeping sp-doms on their toes in terms of needing money to have the essentials and so-doms in terms of needing money to have social security. It is a system based on liquefaction of need, which is a necessary movement out of manorialism since open land is no longer "sacred", but is inherently unsustainable...

    Of course, the economic question is, what next?

    The problem I see is that you and I as Ns and as Head Triad enneatypes share the impulse to look forward and try to guess the future, to anticipate how to best survive and how to best make ourselves happy. There is futility in not looking far beyond the present, but the "more more more" game is also an element of our need to stay alive. Sex and reproduction are an element of that, too. We no longer harbor the cultural beliefs that certain humans are granted ruling status from the divinities above, but capitalism is beginning to fail, too.

    Maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow, but I'm thinking that at least in my relationship today, I'm going to be grateful for what I have, because it's more than enough to get me through. Sexually, I am not the most skilled but neither am I the least skilled, and it's enough for myself and my partner. Economically, the same is true. More money doesn't usually make me happier anyway, it's just more. More freedom does, though. More time to spend with my family does. More focus on creativity and nurturing does.

    I know I've deviated a bit from the OP, but it was an open invitation, right? Sex should be more like homework should be. It should be to teach you how to ultimately fulfill yourself and how to help others fulfill themselves, while fulfilling you in the moment, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
    The human animal, like others, is adapted to a certain amount of struggle for life, and when by means of great wealth homo sapiens can gratify all his whims without effort, the mere absence of effort from his life removes an essential ingredient of happiness. The man who acquires easily things for which he feels only a very moderate desire concludes that the attainment of desire does not bring happiness. If he is of a philosophic disposition, he concludes that human life is essentially wretched, since the man who has all he wants is still unhappy. He forgets that to be without some of the things you want is an indispensable part of happiness."
    I just stumbled upon this. Food for thought... wanting and needing are indispensable - and they will serve to continually improve the human condition... Perhaps a next step is trying to come to terms with holding want and appreciation at the same time, and not letting short-sighted want get the better of us. Learning how to plan for long-term needs while enjoying the short-term, instead of needing in the short-term and trying to plan for happiness in the long-term. Instead of fighting the crowds to get our cake today and planning on eating it tomorrow, planning to have our cake for tomorrow and eating it today. Or turkey, however your family rolls!

    We need this, and goodwill without boundaries. Relinquishment of control. Willingness to see that benefit for one is benefit for all. Letting go of competition for resources, because we are powerful enough and smart enough to create our own resources. Humanity can sustain humanity. There is enough for all. I think socialism has a good idea, if we can utilize it well. We have to see - and act in a way that acknowledges - that there truly is enough to make everybody happy, and that inequality of material resources is not tantamount to unhappiness, but inequality of intangibles is.

  6. #16
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The problem I see is that you and I as Ns and as Head Triad enneatypes share the impulse to look forward and try to guess the future, to anticipate how to best survive and how to best make ourselves happy. There is futility in not looking far beyond the present, but the "more more more" game is also an element of our need to stay alive. Sex and reproduction are an element of that, too. We no longer harbor the cultural beliefs that certain humans are granted ruling status from the divinities above, but capitalism is beginning to fail, too.

    Maybe I'll change my mind tomorrow, but I'm thinking that at least in my relationship today, I'm going to be grateful for what I have, because it's more than enough to get me through. Sexually, I am not the most skilled but neither am I the least skilled, and it's enough for myself and my partner. Economically, the same is true. More money doesn't usually make me happier anyway, it's just more. More freedom does, though. More time to spend with my family does. More focus on creativity and nurturing does.

    I know I've deviated a bit from the OP, but it was an open invitation, right? Sex should be more like homework should be. It should be to teach you how to ultimately fulfill yourself and how to help others fulfill themselves, while fulfilling you in the moment, too.
    fuck, this last line is on the precipice of turning my mind inside out. the purity of the idea of sex holds me to a standard that is impossible to live out. i have been so pessimistic, feeling that it is your truth, and that the truth you actualize requires a kind of sanctification to protect you and the power of the process from being diminished or used improperly. that there is a right way and a wrong way rather than simply a variety of ways (like learning how to do something rather than just thinking that the absolutist method given to you is the only way). it's a kind of overidentification with the transcendental idea, trusting too much in the beauty of an idea and not, as one of my best friends, an entp 7w6 sx/so likes to tell me, "trusting time" enough.

    because as an idea outside of time and particulars, it's impossible to protect that space in the actualization of it, as it becomes real, against the constant sinking feeling of contradictions, exploitation, and the power aspect that i have not been able to reconcile within myself or within the world, instead wanting everything to be heart-based and theoretically perfect. feeling that i always end up hurting and being hurt, and feeling that we all must be responsible for this on behalf of each other rather than on behalf of ourselves. i deny that others and myself must learn to trust ourselves and learn for ourselves and that no other way is possible. there is no prediction, cultural or otherwise, that can fully encapsulate the future. no norms, no behaviors, no symbols that can by themselves protect us from learning the hard way. your statement reminds me that this is an experiential, subjective ethic, a guideline for taking responsibility for your own growth and allowing your own process to unfold with a realization of why it is beautiful for YOU to keep trying to discover, empower, and create the foundation for you to fulfill yourself in a way that learns the art of mutual benefit, which can only be learned from your own experience and your own ability to fulfill yourself. your part in fostering mutual authenticity must begin from your own (like your part in teaching what you have learned rather than simply parroting what you have heard or been indoctrinated with). and you must accept that these things too are impermanent, unpredictable, and somewhat open-ended.

    you've also just redefined sx desire/will as like "will to personal fulfillment" which seems kind of ingenious. perhaps this is the sx specialty. this seems to be what i want to talk about and work on pretty much all the time. two days ago, i had 10 hours of 3 different conversations each one rooted in the theme of striving for personal fulfillment. how can we do better for ourselves, each other, the world? how can we honor our individualization more and more while protecting the spaces that we must share, that bind us together as individuals and as collectives? so many conversations revolve around this and the idea of "mutual benefit," especially with my enp friends. to make something with this huge change potential we all carry around within us (also realizing when to stay lean, sp, and when to share, so).

    i laugh at myself thinking how, ultimately, i've been going crazy because i feel so compelled to work these out on ALL levels, while i feel so blocked in some ways. to accept this process which requires a willingness to employ and submit to the biopower, forcefulness, and reactivity of myself and others, rather than solely staying in-mind, thinking i can stay a few steps ahead and that i can use my advantages without truly exploring my disadvantages, those vulnerabilities that actually prevent me from being free. without feeling like i'm using them or being used by them. yet to be positive about the process, my will to personal fulfillment is forcing me to confront the nature of bodies, power, and asymmetry (that e5 --> e8 shadow integration). it is forcing me to realize that without greater personal responsibility, fostered by personal empowerment, the third chakra, i cannot practice compassion because i am not strong enough to produce enough to be able to offer ongoing, consistent giving (to others and to myself). similarly, without a greater acceptance of personal responsibility and individual autonomy, rather than demanding so much consideration and pre-emptive self-protection, i cannot engage with my own creative potential, i cannot focus on the spaciousness of the moment and exploring it and relating to it in all ways that I, MYSELF, have presently in the unfolding pages of my own story.

    your personal fulfillment is on your shoulders, not someone else's. while socio-cultural games could hopefully provide opportunities for personal fulfillment, what you have control over is what you need to focus your energies on most of all. because you cannot control others. and doing so to protect your own conditions of fulfillment, even if you think it is for everyone's benefit, is a step beyond your rights. too many of these steps, and our culture as a whole loses its authenticity, its ability to empathize with itself, its ability to honor the path of experience beyond the mediated ways it has of guessing what those experiences *must* mean. (also true of relationships). at the same time, the j way of recognizing how to share effectively, symbiotically, is necessary to refine the ways in which mutual benefit is organized and implemented in order to maximize resources. there is a tension in both directions.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    fuck, this last line is on the precipice of turning my mind inside out. the purity of the idea of sex holds me to a standard that is impossible to live out. i have been so pessimistic, feeling that it is your truth, and that the truth you actualize requires a kind of sanctification to protect you and the power of the process from being diminished or used improperly. that there is a right way and a wrong way rather than simply a variety of ways (like learning how to do something rather than just thinking that the absolutist method given to you is the only way). it's a kind of overidentification with the transcendental idea, trusting too much in the beauty of an idea and not, as one of my best friends, an entp 7w6 sx/so likes to tell me, "trusting time" enough.

    because as an idea outside of time and particulars, it's impossible to protect that space in the actualization of it, as it becomes real, against the constant sinking feeling of contradictions, exploitation, and the power aspect that i have not been able to reconcile within myself or within the world, instead wanting everything to be heart-based and theoretically perfect. feeling that i always end up hurting and being hurt, and feeling that we all must be responsible for this on behalf of each other rather than on behalf of ourselves. i deny that others and myself must learn to trust ourselves and learn for ourselves and that no other way is possible. there is no prediction, cultural or otherwise, that can fully encapsulate the future. no norms, no behaviors, no symbols that can by themselves protect us from learning the hard way. your statement reminds me that this is an experiential, subjective ethic, a guideline for taking responsibility for your own growth and allowing your own process to unfold with a realization of why it is beautiful for YOU to keep trying to discover, empower, and create the foundation for you to fulfill yourself in a way that learns the art of mutual benefit, which can only be learned from your own experience and your own ability to fulfill yourself. your part in fostering mutual authenticity must begin from your own (like your part in teaching what you have learned rather than simply parroting what you have heard or been indoctrinated with). and you must accept that these things too are impermanent, unpredictable, and somewhat open-ended.

    you've also just redefined sx desire/will as like "will to personal fulfillment" which seems kind of ingenious. perhaps this is the sx specialty. this seems to be what i want to talk about and work on pretty much all the time. two days ago, i had 10 hours of 3 different conversations each one rooted in the theme of striving for personal fulfillment. how can we do better for ourselves, each other, the world? how can we honor our individualization more and more while protecting the spaces that we must share, that bind us together as individuals and as collectives? so many conversations revolve around this and the idea of "mutual benefit," especially with my enp friends. to make something with this huge change potential we all carry around within us (also realizing when to stay lean, sp, and when to share, so).

    i laugh at myself thinking how, ultimately, i've been going crazy because i feel so compelled to work these out on ALL levels, while i feel so blocked in some ways. to accept this process which requires a willingness to employ and submit to the biopower, forcefulness, and reactivity of myself and others, rather than solely staying in-mind, thinking i can stay a few steps ahead and that i can use my advantages without truly exploring my disadvantages, those vulnerabilities that actually prevent me from being free. without feeling like i'm using them or being used by them. yet to be positive about the process, my will to personal fulfillment is forcing me to confront the nature of bodies, power, and asymmetry (that e5 --> e8 shadow integration). it is forcing me to realize that without greater personal responsibility, fostered by personal empowerment, the third chakra, i cannot practice compassion because i am not strong enough to produce enough to be able to offer ongoing, consistent giving (to others and to myself). similarly, without a greater acceptance of personal responsibility and individual autonomy, rather than demanding so much consideration and pre-emptive self-protection, i cannot engage with my own creative potential, i cannot focus on the spaciousness of the moment and exploring it and relating to it in all ways that I, MYSELF, have presently in the unfolding pages of my own story.

    your personal fulfillment is on your shoulders, not someone else's. while socio-cultural games could hopefully provide opportunities for personal fulfillment, what you have control over is what you need to focus your energies on most of all. because you cannot control others. and doing so to protect your own conditions of fulfillment, even if you think it is for everyone's benefit, is a step beyond your rights. too many of these steps, and our culture as a whole loses its authenticity, its ability to empathize with itself, its ability to honor the path of experience beyond the mediated ways it has of guessing what those experiences *must* mean. (also true of relationships). at the same time, the j way of recognizing how to share effectively, symbiotically, is necessary to refine the ways in which mutual benefit is organized and implemented in order to maximize resources. there is a tension in both directions.

    Read all this. Got nothing. More concise and clear please?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    To be honest this sex by numbers thing is not fun, not even in theory, practically its got to be awful.

  9. #19
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Sex should be more like homework should be. It should be to teach you how to ultimately fulfill yourself and how to help others fulfill themselves, while fulfilling you in the moment, too.
    Exactly, ideally it would all be far more about self-actualization.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I know I've deviated a bit from the OP, but it was an open invitation, right?
    Actually, my own reaction to finding/reading the study was considering how it’s just another symptom of a cultural pathology- how the “hollowing out” in the specific regard mentioned is just one more of the many ways the human character is being ‘hollowed out’. I didn’t write a big ol’ op about it though because really I just wanted to see others’ reactions to the study, to hear about what sort of tangents it set off in anyone else’s head.

    And while I’m often so quick to complain about the education system, I do give props to anyone who can stand to work within the system while seeing what’s wrong with it. From what I’ve gathered, the curriculum is so strict that teachers have very little wiggle room. For the sake of efficiency they’re handed *exactly* what to teach, given a strict schedule by which they’re supposed to teach it and they’re competency as teachers is measured by the extent kids soak up the very specific curriculum. This is regarded as the ‘most productive’ approach- but imo (which is largely informed by John Dewey, Maria Montessori, John Holt, Sir Kenneth Robinson , amongst others) it’s WAY too focused on being as productive as possible without paying any attention to *what* is being produced. So much of it is just teaching kids to senselessly jump through hoops and ultimately it only stifles self-actualization by extinguishing the innate desire to learn and grow. So yeah, I hate the factory mentality that pervades our approach to education, I hate how it only perpetuates something pathological about our society as a whole and I personally saw the content of this study as just another domino in that chain.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

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